View Full Version : Affirmative Action
Death Engineer
06-27-2003, 03:58 AM
For those of you that don't know, the Supreme Court just ruled 5-4 that a Michigan school could consider race (ie. Affirmative Action) when deciding who will be admitted to the college. This sets a precedent for all the colleges nation wide.
Tell me what you think about using affirmative action for college admittance. It might help others to understand your viewpoint if you state your nationality. (I'm as white as they come :P)
Let the dicussion begin!
Sirc see's yet another thread that calls his name, but he knows he must run! Run far away! :shifty: :drink:
Phoenix
06-27-2003, 04:06 AM
Hmmm, seeing that I will be tryig to go to a college in the coming year, this topic will definetally be in my mind. I can see both sides of the argument, as I have heard them many times. And I personally have yet to come to my decision as to what side I choose. Both arguments are valid.
As I see it, the minorities feel that they should have the affirmitive action because they want a fair chance like everyone else (caucasians). But on the other hand, this isn;t truly making things fair, they are getting an advantage and may be taking away an opportunity to someone who is white that may technicallly better suited to go to the desired college *this is based on school performance of course*
Its a touchy subject, thats for sure, and I for one look forward to heariing the opinions from some of the more intelligent and experienced people on this board.
And Sirc, you should voice your opinion, just dont go banana's and get into a flame war. Personally, I would like to hear your opinion.
*EDIT* Also, I am white than white, as Im sure Merkwannabe will kindly point out.
ME BIGGD01
06-27-2003, 04:08 AM
i think affirmitive action is the oppisite of all people being equal. i do not think anyone should be judged on race and that we should be judged on performance. if we are to be equal than there should be no rules that give anyone extra points on tests.
affirmitive action is not equal rights!!!!!!!!!
i also think that school should be burned down if they decide not to take anyone in because of there race.
oh i am purple :oooo:
SALvation
06-27-2003, 04:13 AM
In case anyone is curious, the school was the University of Michigan.
Phoenix
06-27-2003, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jun 27 2003, 04:08 AM
i think affirmitive action is the oppisite of all people being equal. i do not think anyone should be judged on race and that we should be judged on performance. if we are to be equal than there should be no rules that give anyone extra points on tests.
affirmitive action is not equal rights!!!!!!!!!
i also think that school should be burned down if they decide not to take anyone in because of there race.
oh i am purple :oooo:
I completely agree with you, the only probelem with that is that there are still racists in this world, and Im sure there are racists at the college administration who will unfortunatelly judge people based on their color. As you can see, affirmitive action is one heck of a touchy and difficult subject. And I personally think both sides have completely valid and fair arguments.
Originally posted by Phoenix@Jun 27 2003, 12:06 AM
And Sirc, you should voice your opinion, just dont go banana's and get into a flame war. Personally, I would like to hear your opinion.
I think sprinkles show be free at Dairy Queen! They charge you 50 cents for a teaspoon of sprinkles that cost them a dollor a pound! It sucks!
Whew. Your right Phoenix, that does feel better. Good thing I didn't let it build up. Thanks! :thumbs: :P
JIMINATOR
06-27-2003, 04:17 AM
I am posting in this thread so that I can say I was a part of the thread before it gets locked.
Now enjoy. :thumbs:
Phoenix
06-27-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Sirc+Jun 27 2003, 04:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sirc @ Jun 27 2003, 04:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Phoenix@Jun 27 2003, 12:06 AM
And Sirc, you should voice your opinion, just dont go banana's and get into a flame war. Personally, I would like to hear your opinion.
I think sprinkles show be free at Dairy Queen! They charge you 50 cents for a teaspoon of sprinkles that cost them a dollor a pound! It sucks!
Whew. Your right Phoenix, that does feel better. Good thing I didn't let it build up. Thanks! :thumbs: :P [/b][/quote]
They make you pay for sprinkles? Blashemy! This is true horror. How can our society get away with this!?
Are we not human!! I say we have a strike! Infact, lets all boycott DQ until sprinkles may reign free!!!
Unite my friends! Join the Sprinkle Revolution!!!!!!!!!!
*cough*
PimpDaddy
06-27-2003, 04:25 AM
Affirmative action = Quotas
Quotas suck
The schools (or businesses for that matter) should be going after the most qualified applicants. The U of M should want to be known as a school with the smartest students - Now they are more concerned with having the most diverse student body.
Diversity = BFD
Flame on !!!!!!!!!
Dark Reign
06-27-2003, 05:04 AM
Diversity should be encouraged, not enforced.
PimpDaddy
06-27-2003, 05:08 AM
Well Put Dark Reign.
Death Engineer
06-27-2003, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 08:17 AM
I am posting in this thread so that I can say I was a part of the thread before it gets locked.
Now enjoy. :thumbs:
Why should a recent news topic thread get locked just because people have different ideas about it? I think what gets things locked is people who don't express themselves as well as they'd like, and then start getting defensive and "dirty".
So, in short, lets keep it clean as I'm sure everyone would have anyways. :P
DE
Grimmy
06-27-2003, 05:26 AM
IMO if people want to learn, let them, reguardless of nothing! That's all :thumbs:
solid snake295
06-27-2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Dark Reign@Jun 27 2003, 05:04 AM
Diversity should be encouraged, not enforced.
back to sirc's topic
sprinkles should be freely consumed
not payed for
:rofl: :thumbs:
solid snake295
06-27-2003, 05:31 AM
:shifty:
V98ci
06-27-2003, 05:34 AM
I agree that affimative action is wrong. All college admissions forms should not even contain a question asking a persons race. Your admission should be based solely on your performance.
And sprinkles should be free! :thumbs:
That's all I have to say about that! :w00t:
V98ci
06-27-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by solid snake295@Jun 27 2003, 12:31 AM
:shifty:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Snip3r
06-27-2003, 05:50 AM
Since when did someone's brain have a color?
Why would it matter if I'm Asian or Black or Spanish, my skin does not govern my body. My brain does.
They just want more reasons to deny the minority to a equal education. From now on, when they ask me my race on a document, I will draw my own bubble and label it HUMAN. I'm sorry that I'm sounding like Malcom X but I'm in the mood. (SAL and Lev must be feeling alot worse since everything else that's in Michigan sucks right now :P)
But how would universities know what race you are if when you filled out the form, you selected "OTHER". This would be my choice. Or what if everyone selected "ASIAN". Then aww, the poor university wouldn't be able to discriminate against anyone. For christ sake the next thing their gunnu do is start judging people by what shoes they wear. For people who are supposedly very smart, are very ****ed up if they judge people by their skin (<---The Faculty). Oh, and I would like a picture of the faculty. I bet they are all one color, probly White. Now that I think of it, it's like a gang. The Crips hate the Blood's cuz they wear different colors, you know what I'm getting at. Well I will now write down my quotes and send them to some company so they can use them in anti-discrimination commercials.
*EDIT*
Oh and Sirc, I hate you...
You made me crave for vanilla soft serve of a cone with sprinkles... /me drools
JIMINATOR
06-27-2003, 06:15 AM
Points very well and eloquently spoken by white alpha males.
You have problems too, and yet you were/are able to overcome them!
and yet...
you may give black customers extra scrutiny when they come in your store
you may cross the street if you see a black man walking toward you on the same sidewalk
but really, what am I saying, white people don't go to that side of town...
well, except for drugs.
-----------
Now I am really not out here to piss other people off, and what I have just said contains
a ton of stereotypes. My point is only that there are two sides to every situation,
and any discussion should consider the other side.
I am not pro or con anything, but there are not any easy and simplistic answers when
it comes to race.
Black people for the most part face a completely different challenges growing up
than does a white society. It may not be overt racism any more (or it might), but what is it
when everywhere you go, you are the odd man out?
------------
Anyway I see the topic as confrontational, and not likely to prove anything one way or the other.
merkwannabe
06-27-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Phoenix@Jun 27 2003, 04:06 AM
*EDIT* Also, I am white than white, as Im sure Merkwannabe will kindly point out.
I will say nothing because I want to be liked. Although, nevermind.. I like your new avatar Phoenix it is,
how can I say, pretty.
About the topic- This "problem," is clearly depicted in the county I live in. In poorer cities they have
perfect schools and in the rich town I live in we go to school in a wooden dump.. The reason the poorer
cities have better schools is because they are given extra funds by the government. The funds are given
in the name of minorities (in this case Mexicans). However unequal this may be, I agree with it because in
my city, we maintain one of the highest standards of eductaion and in the poorer more immigrant
populated cities their education level is very low.
merkwannabe
06-27-2003, 06:19 AM
PS. I don't anything racist by saying "Mexicans." Just making sure I am safe from banning.
solid snake295
06-27-2003, 06:22 AM
:rolleyes: ..... bouncy.......bouncy...........bouncy.......OH! sorry :rofl:
JIMINATOR
06-27-2003, 06:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Originally posted by JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 02:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Don't you mean he should charge you money? Or did you give that to him? :hmmm:
JIMINATOR
06-27-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Sirc+Jun 27 2003, 02:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sirc @ Jun 27 2003, 02:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 02:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Don't you mean he should charge you money? Or did you give that to him? :hmmm: [/b][/quote]
http://www.gamemecca.net/forums/index.php?...=ST&f=1&t=16566 (http://www.gamemecca.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=16566)
Phoenix
06-27-2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by V98ci@Jun 27 2003, 05:34 AM
I agree that affimative action is wrong. All college admissions forms should not even contain a question asking a persons race. Your admission should be based solely on your performance.
Yeah, it should, but we dont live in a perfect world now do we?
Strider
06-27-2003, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 06:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Chevy's suck.
JIMINATOR
06-27-2003, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Strider@Jun 27 2003, 02:47 AM
Chevy's suck.
Damn strider, lay off the crack cocaine when you hit the boards...
what do chevy's have to do with anything?
V98ci
06-27-2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Phoenix+Jun 27 2003, 01:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Phoenix @ Jun 27 2003, 01:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--V98ci@Jun 27 2003, 05:34 AM
I agree that affimative action is wrong. All college admissions forms should not even contain a question asking a persons race. Your admission should be based solely on your performance.
Yeah, it should, but we dont live in a perfect world now do we? [/b][/quote]
Your right, we don't live in a perfect world. In a perfect world sprinkles would cost .05 and Ice Cream would be free! :w00t: :w00t: :thumbs:
Elessar
06-27-2003, 07:01 AM
Rice sucks
Originally posted by Strider+Jun 27 2003, 02:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strider @ Jun 27 2003, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 06:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Chevy's suck. [/b][/quote]
Ahohoho. That was it. Now I hate you. :devil:
Ricer boy. :P
:w00t: J/K. :thumbs: :drink:
Grimmy
06-27-2003, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Sirc+Jun 27 2003, 02:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sirc @ Jun 27 2003, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Strider@Jun 27 2003, 02:47 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 06:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Chevy's suck.
Ahohoho. That was it. Now I hate you. :devil:
Ricer boy. :P
:w00t: J/K. :thumbs: :drink: [/b][/quote]
Rice :rofl: Nothing compared to a quality GM product :shifty: Race ya anyday, stock vs stock in your rice burner with my grandma SSEi Bonneville. Oh yea, it is super charged, from the factory :jammin: Leather is nice too :P
Originally posted by Grimmy+Jun 27 2003, 03:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Grimmy @ Jun 27 2003, 03:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Sirc@Jun 27 2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by -Strider@Jun 27 2003, 02:47 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--JIMINATOR@Jun 27 2003, 06:24 AM
Damn merk, I should charge you money for that avatar...
it has a way of drawing the eye...
Chevy's suck.
Ahohoho. That was it. Now I hate you. :devil:
Ricer boy. :P
:w00t: J/K. :thumbs: :drink:
Rice :rofl: Nothing compared to a quality GM product :shifty: Race ya anyday, stock vs stock in your rice burner with my grandma SSEi Bonneville. Oh yea, it is super charged, from the factory :jammin: Leather is nice too :P [/b][/quote]
I wanna play chicken with a Ricer! :w00t:
Nope, on second thought, never mind. That little Ricer might screw up my oil pan cover as my V8 Vortec Suburban crushes it underneath. :P
This thread has gone waaaaay off topic now. :unsure:
Probably a good thing though. :thumbs:
Snip3r
06-27-2003, 08:51 AM
http://www.raceworx.com/funnypics/rice2.jpg
Snip3r
06-27-2003, 08:51 AM
http://www.raceworx.com/funnypics/ricer%20rod%20todd.jpg
Pure_Evil
06-27-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by V98ci@Jun 27 2003, 01:34 AM
I agree that affimative action is wrong. All college admissions forms should not even contain a question asking a persons race. Your admission should be based solely on your performance.
And sprinkles should be free! :thumbs:
That's all I have to say about that! :w00t:
I agree, having been on the wrong end of affermative action, I must say that I absolutely hate it! And it was for a job at a University that I got screwed out of because my damn tan just wasn't quite there yet!
Yes there is still some discrimination out there, but not enought t justify AA any more.
Mr Clean
06-28-2003, 07:28 AM
Since no one posted for affirmative action, I'll play devil's advocate and do it.
The number of blacks living at or below the poverty line in this country, as a percentage of the whole black population, is considerably larger than the percentage of whites living at or below the poverty line as a percentage of the whole white population. Why is this so? Supporters of AA would argue that blacks as a whole were held down as slaves until 1864 (end of the Civil War) and then continued to be held down in most parts of the country until the civil rights movement (in the 1960-70's). "Equality" wasn't accepted over night, either. I can remember cross burnings in my home down in the 1980's (just a couple, but still...).
So here you have a people (blacks) who were hated for their skin color and held down. Not ALL blacks were held down, but as a whole I think it's fair to say they have had the worst of it.
Your average 20 year old probably has parents that were old enough to understand Martin Luther King and realize the impact of his life and death.
They went to grade school in segregated schools in some instances. They received inferior education and experienced racism firsthand. They have been at a disadvantage their whole lives compared to whites their same age.
Both the Federal and state governments allowed this to happen (that is to say they didn't stop it from happening. Nonaction is still an action, and it has repurcussions). More blacks are in poverty because they didn't get as good an education and weren't hired for jobs that paid as well or made less wage than the white guy working the same exact job. What the government is doing now is reversing the field, giving the blacks some advantages so that, in time, they will be able to "catch up" to the standard that whites have acheived. That may not be fair to me, a white male, but it wasn't fair to the multiple black generations before me either.
When will AA be no longer in need? Hard to say because it's hard to quantify. Maybe if both blacks and whites have the same percentage of their popluation at or below the poverty line? Who knows, but it isn't equal yet, and that isn't right.
ME BIGGD01
06-28-2003, 01:02 PM
yeah so now affimitive action helps everyone but white people in this country.
so you say there should not be equal rights?
do you think laws can make people like another race?
do you think the laws should make others like someone if they don't?
if there was a choice between affirmitve action and slavery, would i be wrong for chosing slavery as a white man (of course i would but look at my point)? so if there was no slavery what would happend?
Mr Clean
07-03-2003, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jun 28 2003, 07:02 AM
yeah so now affimitive action helps everyone but white people in this country.
so you say there should not be equal rights?
do you think laws can make people like another race?
do you think the laws should make others like someone if they don't?
if there was a choice between affirmitve action and slavery, would i be wrong for chosing slavery as a white man (of course i would but look at my point)? so if there was no slavery what would happend?
Opportunity and rights are not the same thing. We all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We don't have the "right" to be accepted into a certain college program.
Laws can't make people like each other. They can help right the wrongs of the past that have denied certain peoples a level playing field. Once that field is leveled, you get rid of the laws and then it's survivor of the fittest...
Slavery is illegal and against the Constitution, AA is not.
ME BIGGD01
07-03-2003, 06:54 AM
AA IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!!!!!
All men are equal!!!!!!!!!
aa is giving benefits to the minorities and making white people pay for it. if there has to be someone higher i choose white people because i am white just as those who are minorities going for aa.
how about give no one anything and make everyone work for what they need. i don't care about the bs statistics which are never accurate. regardless what does aa offer white people? nothing just more taxes and jobs taken away from those that may be better at the job.
AA=RACISM
AA=NO EQUALS
IF ANY IDIOT DID THE MATH THEY CAN ADD THAT ALL THE HISPANICS AND BLACKS AND ANYONE ELSE OUT NUMBER THE WHITES
so whites vs blacks, chinese, hispanics, mexicans, arabs. the math shows whites are the minorities because we are the ones losing to every group. screw that!!!!!!!
if any other race claims they want to be equal and then say they believe aa is a good thing than i might aswell be a racist. and i might as well consider those who need aa not equal because they are not able to get ahead in life with out the great white people of america.
give me a break--if you can’t make it here in america because you are not white, than go to your country and make it where you are the same color. stop feeding off white peoples losses. it's bad enough all the welfare that all these people suck out of the taxpayers. all the prisons that are filled. all the babies these poor unfortunate people have when they cant even afford to support themselves.
no help for anyone because of race!!!!!!!!!!!
at least when i die i can say i got through life with out any handouts. i never used or will ever use the system. i despise those that do and spit on them.
Elessar
07-03-2003, 06:59 AM
Affirmitive Action is the wrong way to solve the problem.
its a step backwards.
Mr Clean
07-03-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jul 3 2003, 12:54 AM
AA IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!!!!!
All men are equal!!!!!!!!!
aa is giving benefits to the minorities and making white people pay for it. if there has to be someone higher i choose white people because i am white just as those who are minorities going for aa.
how about give no one anything and make everyone work for what they need. i don't care about the bs statistics which are never accurate. regardless what does aa offer white people? nothing just more taxes and jobs taken away from those that may be better at the job.
AA=RACISM
AA=NO EQUALS
IF ANY IDIOT DID THE MATH THEY CAN ADD THAT ALL THE HISPANICS AND BLACKS AND ANYONE ELSE OUT NUMBER THE WHITES
so whites vs blacks, chinese, hispanics, mexicans, arabs. the math shows whites are the minorities because we are the ones losing to every group. screw that!!!!!!!
if any other race claims they want to be equal and then say they believe aa is a good thing than i might aswell be a racist. and i might as well consider those who need aa not equal because they are not able to get ahead in life with out the great white people of america.
give me a break--if you can’t make it here in america because you are not white, than go to your country and make it where you are the same color. stop feeding off white peoples losses. it's bad enough all the welfare that all these people suck out of the taxpayers. all the prisons that are filled. all the babies these poor unfortunate people have when they cant even afford to support themselves.
no help for anyone because of race!!!!!!!!!!!
at least when i die i can say i got through life with out any handouts. i never used or will ever use the system. i despise those that do and spit on them.
BIGG, I don't choose anyone to have an advantage over others. I want all of us to have the same chance. But don't we need to have a level playing field BEFORE we can say that? The field isn't level, right now, as we write this, as you go to work, as the sun rises and sets.
AA, at least in the narrow viewpoint of college admissions, is not unconstitutional according to the Supreme Court. You may disagree with this opinion, but that does not change the ruling or the implications it has on affirmative action.
BIGG, let me ask you this: Would you agree that whites profited from the unfair treatment that blacks were given (from 1776 to the 1960s at least)? The vast majority of top jobs and top 10% of all incomes are white people. How did that happen? Because whites were "better" than minorities and therefore were hired fair and square? There was never any racism in hiring? Back in 1960, when most of today's CEOs joined the work force, there was no racism? You can't possibly say that. I know you can't say that.
Whites (who make up a MAJORITY of the total population of the US according to the latest census taken in 2000) have had an artifical advantage in hiring practices, housing, education, judical treatment, and many other things since 1776. Only in the last couple of decades have there been efforts to reverse that advantage and allowed minorities to "catch up".
You are looking at AA from the viewpoint of right now and how it affects you and your immediate circle. I am looking at it from the history of this country and how it affects all of America now AND in the future. Your viewpoint is too narrow for this discussion, in my opinion. You have to consider this issue from a broader perspective.
Does this make sense to anyone else? Am I communicating my thoughts clearly? I want to make sure this is not a bunch of gibberish....
Mr Clean
07-03-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Elessar@Jul 3 2003, 12:59 AM
Affirmitive Action is the wrong way to solve the problem.
its a step backwards.
What's a better way?
Pure_Evil
07-03-2003, 07:31 AM
A little behind the times my Bald buddy, I think it's discrimination against caucasions, have been on the wrong end of it and it sucks.
Dark Reign
07-03-2003, 07:52 AM
No offense Clean, but I think it's very intresting you support AA. That's all I'm gonna say.
chaotic42
07-03-2003, 09:56 AM
When you point out someone's race, you make yourself vulnerable to racism. You want to cut way back on it? Remove race.
Just remove it. From birth certificates, legal records, school and job applications, medical records, everything. Get rid of it.
Stop forcing diversity as well. That just makes people mad. I know from experience that the best way to get racists riled up is by enacting things like affirmative action. You'll never remove racism. Would you *really* want to work somewhere or go to school somewhere that doesn't want you there? Whatever the reason?
Of course, we need to get rid of the *-American names. I'm not Irish/Cajun-American, I'm American. Don't preach about culture either. We have our own culture, and it's American.
Affirmative action is just making it worse.
Thundarr
07-03-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Dark Reign@Jun 27 2003, 01:04 AM
Diversity should be encouraged, not enforced.
I agree wholeheartedly!! :thumbs:
BTW, I am lily white...
Originally posted by Mr Clean@Jul 3 2003, 03:18 AM
BIGG, I don't choose anyone to have an advantage over others. I want all of us to have the same chance. But don't we need to have a level playing field BEFORE we can say that? The field isn't level, right now, as we write this, as you go to work, as the sun rises and sets.
And who determines what a level playing field is? :hmmm:
I'm with BIGG on this one.
Originally posted by chaotic42@Jul 3 2003, 05:56 AM
When you point out someone's race, you make yourself vulnerable to racism. You want to cut way back on it? Remove race.
Just remove it. From birth certificates, legal records, school and job applications, medical records, everything. Get rid of it.
Stop forcing diversity as well. That just makes people mad. I know from experience that the best way to get racists riled up is by enacting things like affirmative action. You'll never remove racism. Would you *really* want to work somewhere or go to school somewhere that doesn't want you there? Whatever the reason?
Of course, we need to get rid of the *-American names. I'm not Irish/Cajun-American, I'm American. Don't preach about culture either. We have our own culture, and it's American.
Affirmative action is just making it worse.
Nicely said. :thumbs:
EXEcution
07-03-2003, 05:25 PM
Anyone here read, The Giver by Lois Lowry, thats howthe world should be today like!
Thundarr
07-03-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Mr Clean@Jun 28 2003, 03:28 AM
Since no one posted for affirmative action, I'll play devil's advocate and do it.
The number of blacks living at or below the poverty line in this country, as a percentage of the whole black population, is considerably larger than the percentage of whites living at or below the poverty line as a percentage of the whole white population. Why is this so? Supporters of AA would argue that blacks as a whole were held down as slaves until 1864 (end of the Civil War) and then continued to be held down in most parts of the country until the civil rights movement (in the 1960-70's). "Equality" wasn't accepted over night, either. I can remember cross burnings in my home down in the 1980's (just a couple, but still...).
So here you have a people (blacks) who were hated for their skin color and held down. Not ALL blacks were held down, but as a whole I think it's fair to say they have had the worst of it.
Your average 20 year old probably has parents that were old enough to understand Martin Luther King and realize the impact of his life and death.
They went to grade school in segregated schools in some instances. They received inferior education and experienced racism firsthand. They have been at a disadvantage their whole lives compared to whites their same age.
Both the Federal and state governments allowed this to happen (that is to say they didn't stop it from happening. Nonaction is still an action, and it has repurcussions). More blacks are in poverty because they didn't get as good an education and weren't hired for jobs that paid as well or made less wage than the white guy working the same exact job. What the government is doing now is reversing the field, giving the blacks some advantages so that, in time, they will be able to "catch up" to the standard that whites have acheived. That may not be fair to me, a white male, but it wasn't fair to the multiple black generations before me either.
When will AA be no longer in need? Hard to say because it's hard to quantify. Maybe if both blacks and whites have the same percentage of their popluation at or below the poverty line? Who knows, but it isn't equal yet, and that isn't right.
Mr. Clean, I have to say, you have expressed yourself very eloquently here!! And although I agree with Dark Reign that Diversity should be encouraged but not enforced, I have to say that I think you are right with regard to getting the playing field even... I know it sucks for some people to be on the short end of the stick, but imagine being on the short end of the stick all your life and all the lives of your parents, grand parents - great-grand parents and so on... Whites brought the Africans here against their will and made them suffer for years and years and now America trying to make up for it a little bit... I am sorry, but I don't think that is a bad thing... At least it hasn't come to reparations for slavery being issued (which I believe would be wrong because none of the African-Americans who would benefit from reparations were actually slaves, but I digress...) :oooo:
Elessar
07-03-2003, 05:35 PM
Well Clean
my response would of been basically, what Chaotic said.
That is a way to solve the problem. But they wouldnt allow that because then they wouldnt know when theyre qouta was met......................
Thundarr
07-03-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by chaotic42@Jul 3 2003, 05:56 AM
When you point out someone's race, you make yourself vulnerable to racism. You want to cut way back on it? Remove race.
Just remove it. From birth certificates, legal records, school and job applications, medical records, everything. Get rid of it.
Stop forcing diversity as well. That just makes people mad. I know from experience that the best way to get racists riled up is by enacting things like affirmative action. You'll never remove racism. Would you *really* want to work somewhere or go to school somewhere that doesn't want you there? Whatever the reason?
Of course, we need to get rid of the *-American names. I'm not Irish/Cajun-American, I'm American. Don't preach about culture either. We have our own culture, and it's American.
Affirmative action is just making it worse.
Ahhh, in a perfect world.... This would be the solution, for sure!! :thumbs:
ME BIGGD01
07-03-2003, 08:51 PM
as far as slaves go---i never owned any and never will
as far as playing field---no need today. those days were destroyed by white people to make all people equal. it was white people that got rid of slavery along with the respected black leaders who believed it was possible.
if we look at the past and expect something for free for it, every race would still be responsible for themself.
the real racism is against wjite people because they are judged by there color. think about it. you can be from italy, ireland, england, france, canada, etc. etc. and if you come here you are an immigrant. why is it AA does not apply to them?
the problem here is the government dividing the people so they never become 1. could you imagine if all the people got together and looked at the gov't and the way they run things? instead there are race issues that will probably never end until the last day of our life.
JIMINATOR
07-03-2003, 08:59 PM
well, what if the quality of your life was built upon the suppression
of those people that happened in the past.
you did not grow up in a ghetto speaking what others would consider to be ignorant english.
the color of your skin is not going to scare people away.
The country has a bias towards black people.
I am glad that you don't see or feel it, and yeah, I am sure that you have lots of good black friends.
Try talking to one of them about racism and ask them what it is like and when they last experienced it.
You might find that to be an enlightening experience, as for many black people it is a daily thing.
:angel: no comment...
imagine what extraterrestrials would think of people dividing each other by the color of their skin....i'm sure dark green aliens dont get to travel in spaceships....only teal or grass green.....no darker !!!! :wacko:
JIMINATOR
07-03-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Nick@Jul 3 2003, 05:01 PM
:angel: no comment...
imagine what extraterrestrials would think of people dividing each other by the color of their skin....i'm sure dark green aliens dont get to travel in spaceships....only teal or grass green.....no darker !!!! :wacko:
Well Nick, Canada never had slavery, so your society is not stratified as is america's.
Still I bet that you have your own groups of people that are looked down on,
perhaps mountain or country folk, perhaps people moving in from other parts of canada, etc.
As a species, man loves racism, racism means survival of those most like one's self.
look at the countries that russia used to rule. Russia leaves
and then the once peaceful people turn to genocide to eradicate the other races.
It is unfortunate, but that is man, the human animal.
Elessar
07-03-2003, 11:03 PM
ive experianced racisim on a daily basis and im white
ive experianced it down and dirty for no reason other then being white
are you truly trying to say black people are the only ones who experianced racisim?
my ancestors were brought to america AS IRISH SLAVES
do you hear me bitching now?
wanting others to be short changed for others faults in the past?
fuuuuuuuuuck no.
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by Dark Reign@Jul 3 2003, 01:52 AM
No offense Clean, but I think it's very intresting you support AA. That's all I'm gonna say.
I never said I did and I never said I didn't. I said I was going to play devil's advocate since no one else was posting an opinion for AA....
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by chaotic42@Jul 3 2003, 03:56 AM
When you point out someone's race, you make yourself vulnerable to racism. You want to cut way back on it? Remove race.
Just remove it. From birth certificates, legal records, school and job applications, medical records, everything. Get rid of it.
Stop forcing diversity as well. That just makes people mad. I know from experience that the best way to get racists riled up is by enacting things like affirmative action. You'll never remove racism. Would you *really* want to work somewhere or go to school somewhere that doesn't want you there? Whatever the reason?
Of course, we need to get rid of the *-American names. I'm not Irish/Cajun-American, I'm American. Don't preach about culture either. We have our own culture, and it's American.
Affirmative action is just making it worse.
AA is not about racism, it's about the economic deficit inflicted on those who were victim's of racism. Even if racism ended today the legacy of it is still being felt throughout the world.....
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Sirc+Jul 3 2003, 11:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sirc @ Jul 3 2003, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Mr Clean@Jul 3 2003, 03:18 AM
BIGG, I don't choose anyone to have an advantage over others. I want all of us to have the same chance. But don't we need to have a level playing field BEFORE we can say that? The field isn't level, right now, as we write this, as you go to work, as the sun rises and sets.
And who determines what a level playing field is? :hmmm:
I'm with BIGG on this one. [/b][/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, that is a question that needs to be answered. I'm not so much concerned with the who as with the what. What determines it? The same percentage of the population of blacks AND whites in each of the income brackets? Whatever the determining factor should be the fact remains that the field is far from level right now.
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jul 3 2003, 02:51 PM
as far as slaves go---i never owned any and never will
as far as playing field---no need today. those days were destroyed by white people to make all people equal. it was white people that got rid of slavery along with the respected black leaders who believed it was possible.
if we look at the past and expect something for free for it, every race would still be responsible for themself.
the real racism is against wjite people because they are judged by there color. think about it. you can be from italy, ireland, england, france, canada, etc. etc. and if you come here you are an immigrant. why is it AA does not apply to them?
the problem here is the government dividing the people so they never become 1. could you imagine if all the people got together and looked at the gov't and the way they run things? instead there are race issues that will probably never end until the last day of our life.
That is a good thought-provoking post....
ME BIGGD01
07-05-2003, 06:34 AM
jiminator--i don't care how black people feel. today i am not responsible for the past unless i caused it. blacks have just as much chance as whites. if you ask a black prson about slavery and they say they were a slave, they are full of crap. i could care less about the indians also. i didnt take there land so i shouldnt have to pay tax if they dont.
what will my kids kids kids have to pay for? white people are the slaves and i think it's complete bull**** that anyone can use there race as a handicap. if you are black and feel white people hold you down in america than get the hell out of america. this goes for all races!!!!!!!
i am proud to be white. i take pride in all of my work. i take pride in all that i do. i am honest, and take care of my family the best way i can. times are just as hard for me than you. being white in my life has not giving me anything for free or easy anything. it is my hard work and dedication that gets me where i am. i paid for my own college while many blacks and hispanics got it for free due to grants. i managed to hold a 3.87 in school even though i worked two jobs and had very little sleep. i graduated while many who got there school for free didnt. they quit and the the scool still got paid. now where is the whites holding these people down?
it's complete bull**** and if you are white and except it well good for you sucker!!!!! i do not except it and because of these laws i do anything i can to help just white people. i will not help any other race get ahead. does this make me a racist? who cares what you think.
AA sucks, is unconstitutional, and is weakening our work force. And making things damn dangerous for us, because the Fire Departments and Police Stations are getting hit hard by this crap. The City of Dayton has already lowered the qualifications and made entrance exams easier so minorities will have a better chance of passing. That just sucks. Total stupidity. :bandhead:
ME BIGGD01
07-05-2003, 07:11 AM
all whites should keep this in mind. one day they may have to be put into this position and then when that time comes, "i would ask so what do you think of aa?"
i suggest writing your congressman and express how you feel. always vote for a guy with the right values.
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jul 5 2003, 03:11 AM
all whites should keep this in mind. one day they may have to be put into this position and then when that time comes, "i would ask so what do you think of aa?"
i suggest writing your congressman and express how you feel. always vote for a guy with the right values.
Well, I haven't written my congressman, but we no longer live in the City of Dayton. :thumbs:
JIMINATOR
07-05-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jul 5 2003, 02:34 AM
it's complete bull**** and if you are white and except it well good for you sucker!!!!! i do not except it and because of these laws i do anything i can to help just white people. i will not help any other race get ahead. does this make me a racist? who cares what you think.
yeah, that's it. go ahead and show your complete lack of self control like you did the last time.
It just demonstrates why this is such a pointless discussion.
Originally posted by JIMINATOR+Jul 5 2003, 03:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JIMINATOR @ Jul 5 2003, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ME BIGGD01@Jul 5 2003, 02:34 AM
it's complete bull**** and if you are white and except it well good for you sucker!!!!! i do not except it and because of these laws i do anything i can to help just white people. i will not help any other race get ahead. does this make me a racist? who cares what you think.
yeah, that's it. go ahead and show your complete lack of self control like you did the last time.
It just demonstrates why this is such a pointless discussion. [/b][/quote]
Well, I don't think it's a pointless discussion. Anyone who has been adversely affected by AA will naturally have some strong opinions about it. BIGG is just a very passionate person. Trust me, I know. :P
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Sirc@Jul 5 2003, 01:02 AM
AA sucks, is unconstitutional, and is weakening our work force. And making things damn dangerous for us, because the Fire Departments and Police Stations are getting hit hard by this crap. The City of Dayton has already lowered the qualifications and made entrance exams easier so minorities will have a better chance of passing. That just sucks. Total stupidity. :bandhead:
Quite frankly I have a hard time believing the city of Dayton did that JUST so that more minorities would "pass". About when did this happen?
Originally posted by Mr Clean+Jul 5 2003, 03:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr Clean @ Jul 5 2003, 03:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Sirc@Jul 5 2003, 01:02 AM
AA sucks, is unconstitutional, and is weakening our work force. And making things damn dangerous for us, because the Fire Departments and Police Stations are getting hit hard by this crap. The City of Dayton has already lowered the qualifications and made entrance exams easier so minorities will have a better chance of passing. That just sucks. Total stupidity. :bandhead:
Quite frankly I have a hard time believing the city of Dayton did that JUST so that more minorities would "pass". About when did this happen? [/b][/quote]
About 4 years ago. The Fire Department literally went on strike because of it. As did the Police. Major blue and red flue! :lol:
Dayton is not the only city this has happened in. But now I live in the burbs, so I could care less what the City of Dayton does.
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Sirc+Jul 5 2003, 01:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sirc @ Jul 5 2003, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Mr Clean@Jul 5 2003, 03:32 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirc@Jul 5 2003, 01:02 AM
AA sucks, is unconstitutional, and is weakening our work force.* And making things damn dangerous for us, because the Fire Departments and Police Stations are getting hit hard by this crap.* The City of Dayton has already lowered the qualifications and made entrance exams easier so minorities will have a better chance of passing.* That just sucks.* Total stupidity.* :bandhead:
Quite frankly I have a hard time believing the city of Dayton did that JUST so that more minorities would "pass". About when did this happen?
About 4 years ago. The Fire Department literally went on strike because of it. As did the Police. Major blue and red flue! :lol:
Dayton is not the only city this has happened in. But now I live in the burbs, so I could care less what the City of Dayton does. [/b][/quote]
The City of St. Louis has a hard time because they have a residency requirement (you have to live in the city limits to have a city job). Unfortunately most of the people smart enough to do the job are smart enough not to live in the city! :P
But I digress. I guess the question then is what is a better way of making up for the past errors of this nation? How to we fix it?
Originally posted by Mr Clean@Jul 5 2003, 03:45 AM
The City of St. Louis has a hard time because they have a residency requirement (you have to live in the city limits to have a city job). Unfortunately most of the people smart enough to do the job are smart enough not to live in the city! :P
But I digress. I guess the question then is what is a better way of making up for the past errors of this nation? How to we fix it?
Dayton has the same resdency requirement. When we lived there we lived in the far southwest corner. Where all the police lived. LOL. There were at least 16 police officers living within a 4 block radius of us. The crime rate was about zero. And the area got patrolled heavly night and day. But the scholls sucked. We were lucky enough to get our kids into a local elemenatry school that far outperformed any other city school. But when Sifi went into the 7th grade he was bused 60 minutes to a school in the absolute worst part of town. Thanks to the desegragation laws. On two different occasions Police chased fleeing criminals THROUGH THE ****ING SCHOOL BUILDING! :bandhead:
Jeez. I have some really strong and bitter feeling about this. But we now live in an middle to upper-class neighborhood that has an excellent state and national school rating. And I'm busting my ass trying to pay for the house, and the taxes, and the school activities. But it's worth it.
What can we do? Hell, I don't know. But I knew what I needed to do.
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Sirc+Jul 5 2003, 02:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sirc @ Jul 5 2003, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Mr Clean@Jul 5 2003, 03:45 AM
The City of St. Louis has a hard time because they have a residency requirement (you have to live in the city limits to have a city job). Unfortunately most of the people smart enough to do the job are smart enough not to live in the city! :P
But I digress. I guess the question then is what is a better way of making up for the past errors of this nation? How to we fix it?
Dayton has the same resdency requirement. When we lived there we lived in the far southwest corner. Where all the police lived. LOL. There were at least 16 police officers living within a 4 block radius of us. The crime rate was about zero. And the area got patrolled heavly night and day. But the scholls sucked. We were lucky enough to get our kids into a local elemenatry school that far outperformed any other city school. But when Sifi went into the 7th grade he was bused 60 minutes to a school in the absolute worst part of town. Thanks to the desegragation laws. On two different occasions Police chased fleeing criminals THROUGH THE ****ING SCHOOL BUILDING! :bandhead:
Jeez. I have some really strong and bitter feeling about this. But we now live in an middle to upper-class neighborhood that has an excellent state and national school rating. And I'm busting my ass trying to pay for the house, and the taxes, and the school activities. But it's worth it.
What can we do? Hell, I don't know. But I knew what I needed to do. [/b][/quote]
I hear ya. My wife grew up in a war zone. You couldn't pay me enough to live inside a metropolitan city limit. I live in the burbs because it's safe!
ME BIGGD01
07-05-2003, 08:15 AM
how do we fix it?????
it's already fixed. there are many black leaders in this country. there are many black millionaires.
are you saying the reason they are sucessfull is because of aa?
jim, why is it i can not express my feelings that it makes it a pointless discussion? am i wrong for feeling that aa is nothing but discrimination to whites? try to understand my points or point i am making in each post. i know the point isnt always clear and may go over some heads but look again. i reversed exactly what aa is supposed to prevent. the thing is, you can except aa but not except the reverse.
yes sirc, i guess i am very out spoken :P it just amazes me that many people just see anyone who is not white as a victim. i am not sure if it's pure ignorance or just people trying to get me steamed. i guess all the whites that had it hard and live like crap don't matter to them. it's like all people with white skin that enters america get a full bank account and free food and house. :bandhead: .
out of all the posts against me no one answers any of my posts even like the one in this post "are you saying the reason they are sucessfull is because of aa".
and here is another----how long do we have to keep paying for a past i was never involved in?
i suggest those who cannot conversate in such a topic without any points, not to.
ME BIGGD01
07-05-2003, 08:21 AM
[Jeez. I have some really strong and bitter feeling about this. But we now live in an middle to upper-class neighborhood that has an excellent state and national school rating. And I'm busting my ass trying to pay for the house, and the taxes, and the school activities. But it's worth it.]
sirc, that's why i am passionate about this subject and others like it. we all are to be equal. from that statement there from your last post it shows you arent getting special treatment in america just like i am not and billions of others because you are white. i can not understand why anyone does as it makes others life more difficult. i just can not understand it today. do they want equal rights or do they not want equal rights? :WTF:
BIGG, I'm pretty much with you all the way in this thread. I've been trying to be mellow about some of the things discussed here. But the fact is, if I were to completely and freely express some of my feelings about this crap, I would no doubt be called a racist by some here. And I suppose I am in some ways. But you have to protect what you have. Jesse Jackson is a racist. The NAACP is a racist organisation just by their very nature. The Black Engineers Club at the university that I work at is a racist organisation. The black college funds are racist.
And AA is racist. And illegal. And unconstitutional.
I'm tired of being considered an oppresser and a racist just because these organisations think it's wrong for me to protect my own rights.
Mr Clean
07-05-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Jul 5 2003, 02:15 AM
how do we fix it?????
it's already fixed. there are many black leaders in this country. there are many black millionaires.
are you saying the reason they are sucessfull is because of aa?
and here is another----how long do we have to keep paying for a past i was never involved in?
It's not already fixed just because there are black millionaires. Just because Darius Rucker played with a bunch of white guys in Hootie and the Blowfish doesn't mean that all bands are intergrated, either.
Maybe they are successful of AA. I'm sure some are and some aren't.
I understand your point BIGG but you don't understand mine. I'm talking about ALL blacks. Every single one of them. Not the ones that are millionaires or the ones that play in the NBA. There are success stories, but as an entire group blacks are at a distinct disadvantage. They weren't allowed to prosper while whites were.
You mention how you shouldn't have to pay for the past because you weren't there. Blacks ARE paying for the past even though they weren't there. Is that fair? They suffer as a result of the actions of this country and you don't? They continue to feel the results of racism in America while you don't? Is that right?
Look at their side of the argument for a minute.
ME BIGGD01
07-05-2003, 05:58 PM
blacks arent paying for anything. you speak for all blacks? how about speaking for some whites. make an example. if i was black, i would be deeply offended by your remarks. i think it's complete bull**** that any one can use that excuse.
mr clean, you speak for all the blacks? do you think they were the only one supressed in america?
point blank--aa is racist against white people and discriminates against other white immigrant races. one day it will be gone. the sooner the better.
this is my last post on this subject as i think i have made it clear how i feel.
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