Under God?

[PJ'l_Master]

EVERYONE KEEP THIS THREAD UNDER CONTROL SO IT DOESNT GET LOCKED

All i have to say is...

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.”


...and dont you forget it :wootrock:

[OUTLAWS 9.99repeating^32]

Let me ask you this:

If your kid was forced to hear(and many times out of peer pressure, say) "under Allah" or "under Buddha" every day(instead of "under God"), would you still want it in the pledge?

[PJ'l_Master]

i frankly i consider god a general term, and not one specific god of a single religion.

and besides everyone has the option NOT to recite or hear the pledge

[EXEcution]

It all depends on what people believe, everyoen is different so say what you want or daont say anything at all.
My theory! :)

[Seriously Deadly]

I have a few kids that religion wont allow them to say the pledge in my class.i guess it might be kinda fair to those kids

[NightBreed]

Originally posted by PJ'l_Master@Mar 24 2004, 09:25 PM
i frankly i consider god a general term, and not one specific god of a single religion.

and besides everyone has the option NOT to recite or hear the pledge



Exactly... :cool:

[OUTLAWS 9.99repeating^32]

Originally posted by PJ'l_Master@Mar 24 2004, 09:25 PM
i frankly i consider god a general term, and not one specific god of a single religion.

But you didn't answer my question. And my point is, an Athiest parent wouldn't want his/her kid subjected to that, just as a Christian wouldn't want his/her kid subjected to "under Allah" or "under Buddah".

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by 9.99repeating^32+Mar 25 2004, 02:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (9.99repeating^32 @ Mar 25 2004, 02:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-PJ&#39;l_Master@Mar 24 2004, 09:25 PM
i frankly i consider god a general term, and not one specific god of a single religion.

But you didn&#39;t answer my question. And my point is, an athiest parent wouldn&#39;t want his/her kid subjected to that, just as a Christian wouldn&#39;t want his/her kid subjected to "under Allah" or "under Buddah". [/b][/quote]
i wouldnt really care...if people are that uptight about what kind of culture their kids are exposed to then it makes me think that people are just actively searching for things to complain about

i want my kids to be exposed to all kinds of cultures so that they can make educated decsisions about their beliefs.

:wave:

[Slice]

Um first of all it&#39;s not the National Anthem. :loser: So take this poll and shove it.

[EXEcution]

Yea it the Pledge of Allegiance, out national anthem is the star spangled banner&#33; :huh:

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by Slice@Mar 25 2004, 03:07 AM
Um first of all it&#39;s not the National Anthem. :loser: So take this poll and shove it.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

yeah your right... :bandhead: :bandhead: :bandhead:

[EXEcution]

u kinda just really embarassed urself and everyone at GM, my suggestion to u is to sit and cry for a couple hours

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by .:EXEcution:.@Mar 25 2004, 03:14 AM
u kinda just really embarassed urself and everyone at GM, my suggestion to u is to sit and cry for a couple hours
:unsure: ...yes sir...


:bawling: <---for 2 hours

is that better

[PJ'l_Master]

and of course there is no way to edit the contents of the poll...nice

[EXEcution]

Originally posted by PJ&#39;l_Master+Mar 24 2004, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PJ&#39;l_Master @ Mar 24 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-.:EXEcution:.@Mar 25 2004, 03:14 AM
u kinda just really embarassed urself and everyone at GM, my suggestion to u is to sit and cry for a couple hours
:unsure: ...yes sir...


:bawling: <---for 2 hours

is that better [/b][/quote]
:wootrock: GJ&#33; :babe:

[ME BIGGD01]

i personally find people that have to make an argument over this dusgusting. first of all it says god and not budda christ jehova or santa clause. it&#39;s people that have to cause this bs to stir things up. look at the way the world is today. if your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught. america was built this way and for the liberals that can&#39;t deal with it should move to europe. i swear i have never met anyone to actually tell me that saying the pledge in school is a problem but wish i could and have this debate with them. if you can&#39;t deal with it go to another coutry and raise your kids. you think these freaks would rather cause problems with the schools and the education in this country but no, it&#39;s better to complain that the word god is in the poa. if you want to fuss about something, fuss about real problems. hell i can&#39;t wait until another 50 years so that white people are the minority and we can start getting all the extra benifits and free college and we can use affirmative action to get the jobs. at this point i just look at americans who let this happend with disgust and no longer support anyone. as far as schools go, i will be sending my kids to private school becuase of the way the public schools are run. our kids in this country may be wiser but they are not being educated the way they should be. that&#39;s fine for everyone elses kids being dumb with no innovative skills and all the other countries will be providng everything. here in ny, the mayor is looking to hold back the 3rd grade because they are stupid and the parents are arguing about it. duh, they can not read yet the parents want them to advance in a grade. this country sucks today because of what is going on and i could care less at this point what next they do. i will pay my taxes and raise my family with god in our house. i am sure my kids wont be shooting others in school and swearing and doing drugs. my wife and i will make sure our kids are raised the true american way which is the old american way and not this new wave america, killing and making the country weak. the next attack this country gets, i won&#39;t care as long as no one in my family is touched by it. for once i would love to see people getting together and fixing a real problem that will actually better this country but those days are long gone. can you think of the last thing this country has done to make it better?? me either.

[ME BIGGD01]

i am also sure alot of people agree because from the discussions i have had with others near me feel the same. i do not know how other here feel because there are alot of young kids here. but if you are a kid in school, look around in class tommorow and the school and think to yourself "does the word god have anything to do with your school and are we getting a good education?" also ask one of your friends in class what the vice presidents name is. you will be suprised that many have no clue.

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Mar 25 2004, 03:22 AM
i personally find people that have to make an argument over this dusgusting. first of all it says god and not budda christ jehova or santa clause. it&#39;s people that have to cause this bs to stir things up. look at the way the world is today. if your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught. america was built this way and for the liberals that can&#39;t deal with it should move to europe. i swear i have never met anyone to actually tell me that saying the pledge in school is a problem but wish i could and have this debate with them. if you can&#39;t deal with it go to another coutry and raise your kids. you think these freaks would rather cause problems with the schools and the education in this country but no, it&#39;s better to complain that the word god is in the poa. if you want to fuss about something, fuss about real problems. hell i can&#39;t wait until another 50 years so that white people are the minority and we can start getting all the extra benifits and free college and we can use affirmative action to get the jobs. at this point i just look at americans who let this happend with disgust and no longer support anyone. as far as schools go, i will be sending my kids to private school becuase of the way the public schools are run. our kids in this country may be wiser but they are not being educated the way they should be. that&#39;s fine for everyone elses kids being dumb with no innovative skills and all the other countries will be providng everything. here in ny, the mayor is looking to hold back the 3rd grade because they are stupid and the parents are arguing about it. duh, they can not read yet the parents want them to advance in a grade. this country sucks today because of what is going on and i could care less at this point what next they do. i will pay my taxes and raise my family with god in our house. i am sure my kids wont be shooting others in school and swearing and doing drugs. my wife and i will make sure our kids are raised the true american way which is the old american way and not this new wave america, killing and making the country weak. the next attack this country gets, i won&#39;t care as long as no one in my family is touched by it. for once i would love to see people getting together and fixing a real problem that will actually better this country but those days are long gone. can you think of the last thing this country has done to make it better?? me either.
let it out brother :P

he is tryin to hold back the ENTIRE 3rd grade...thats LUDICROUS

[ME BIGGD01]

Originally posted by 9.99repeating^32@Mar 25 2004, 02:20 AM
Let me ask you this:

If your kid was forced to hear(and many times out of peer pressure, say) "under Allah" or "under Buddha" every day(instead of "under God"), would you still want it in the pledge?
where the kids go to school who are muslim and believe in allah, they have no choice to praise allah. i would love to see some liberals try to change their way also. forget it, that only happends in america.

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01+Mar 25 2004, 03:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ME BIGGD01 @ Mar 25 2004, 03:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-9.99repeating^32@Mar 25 2004, 02:20 AM
Let me ask you this:

If your kid was forced to hear(and many times out of peer pressure, say) "under Allah" or "under Buddha" every day(instead of "under God"), would you still want it in the pledge?
where the kids go to school who are muslim and believe in allah, they have no choice to praise allah. i would love to see some liberals try to change their way also. forget it, that only happends in america. [/b][/quote]
thats right...


(I think Bigg found a subject that he wants to debate on) :thumbs:

[EXEcution]

This goes way beyond my uh...???mental capabilities???... i really cant say anything about public schools, cuz i go to a good one (one of the best in our state) and i am well educated and the teachers are very intelligent people, school is school you go there to learn new thing so that you can apply the things you learn later in life, the existance of god is something people dont have to know about cuz the church today had virtually no power over the nation unlike some 200+ years ago.
So people act like the other people around them act, and they will do the thinggs people around them do, thats just human nature and the only way we can change that is well.. we wont get into that.

[ME BIGGD01]

Originally posted by PJ&#39;l_Master+Mar 25 2004, 03:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PJ&#39;l_Master @ Mar 25 2004, 03:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ME BIGGD01@Mar 25 2004, 03:22 AM
i personally find people that have to make an argument over this dusgusting.&nbsp; first of all it says god and not budda christ jehova or santa clause.&nbsp; it&#39;s people that have to cause this bs to stir things up.&nbsp; look at the way the world is today.&nbsp; if your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught.&nbsp; america was built this way and for the liberals that can&#39;t deal with it should move to europe.&nbsp; i swear i have never met anyone to actually tell me that saying the pledge in school is a problem but wish i could and have this debate with them.&nbsp; if you can&#39;t deal with it go to another coutry and raise your kids.&nbsp; you think these freaks would rather cause problems with the schools and the education in this country but no, it&#39;s better to complain that the word god is in the poa.&nbsp; &nbsp; if you want to fuss about something, fuss about real problems.&nbsp; hell i can&#39;t wait until another 50 years so that white people are the minority and we can start getting all the extra benifits and free college and we can use affirmative action to get the jobs.&nbsp; at this point i just look at americans who let this happend with disgust and no longer support anyone.&nbsp; as far as schools go, i will be sending my kids to private school becuase of the way the public schools are run.&nbsp; our kids in this country may be wiser but they are not being educated the way they should be.&nbsp; that&#39;s fine for everyone elses kids being dumb with no innovative skills and all the other countries will be providng everything.&nbsp; here in ny, the mayor is looking to hold back the 3rd grade because they are stupid and the parents are arguing about it.&nbsp; duh, they can not read yet the parents want them to advance in a grade.&nbsp; this country sucks today because of what is going on and i could care less at this point what next they do.&nbsp; i will pay my taxes and raise my family with god in our house.&nbsp; i am sure my kids wont be shooting others in school and swearing and doing drugs.&nbsp; my wife and i will make sure our kids are raised the true american way which is the old american way and not this new wave america, killing and making the country weak.&nbsp; the next attack this country gets, i won&#39;t care as long as no one in my family is touched by it.&nbsp; for once i would love to see people getting together and fixing a real problem that will actually better this country but those days are long gone.&nbsp; can you think of the last thing this country has done to make it better??&nbsp; me either.
let it out brother :P

he is tryin to hold back the ENTIRE 3rd grade...thats LUDICROUS [/b][/quote]
think about it though. if the 3rd grade classes are not passing the test that would show they have the intelligence, would you want them to advance? don&#39;t you think that america has cheated just about everyone who has gone to school due to lack of profession. i know i should have learned more in school. with all the tax money being spent, should education be offering the finest in this great rich country? other countries laugh at us and sometimes you have to stand back to see why. look at india for instance. they are a well cultured and maintain very good discipline. the kids grow to be very intelligent and many doctors and engineers. here most parents take the easy way out and buy the kids playstation and game after game rather making sure the homework is done and/or looking over what&#39;s going on with their school work etc etc. ever wonder why kids are the way they are today? i know there are some good parents out there breaking their arse making sure their children are doing what needs to be done but the ones that don&#39;t ruin it for the others.

my daughter is 16 months old and i spend the time with her everyday to sing the abc&#39;s and once in awhile when she is in my office, teaching her computer parts. i know she doesnt understand but she will as she gets bigger. it&#39;s time that needs to be spent and not wasted on some liberal looking to stir crap up about god in the POA. i se ethey have no problem making money that says in god we trust.

[EXEcution]

All of that is true, but people in India (as much as i hate to say it) arent as "developed" as America is, we might end up going downt the drain because of our obsession with pop culture and other things....what wil happen to us in the next 40 yearsm id really liek to know

[EXEcution]

PS i dont type like that cuz im retarded i just do it fast and push several keys in dift order :blink:

[ME BIGGD01]

developed? how so? not everyone has to follow americans to be considered fully developed. but taking your point, doesnt it look even worst that for a country you say is not developed seems to be doing well with the childrens education. you have to look at other countries aswell. there are some very bright asians. and germany has some of the best engineers. funny thing is alot of the students goto the colleges here and get those degrees. isnt it ashame that a family has to spend what they have to do get an education in college? i am saving now for my daughter and fear it still won&#39;t be enough.

i have to question your definition of developed.

[EXEcution]

i guess i dont mean it as in mentally or physically developed i was thinking more along the lines of economy and politics, these people dont posess the freedom we do, and if they did they&#39;d prolly all be watching TV on their couches and eating potato chips too&#33;

[ME BIGGD01]

i am not sure about that (potato chips and stuff). i don&#39;t think americas laziness has anything to do with anyones development. as far as politics go, we need to be developed there.

[EXEcution]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 11:59 PM
i am not sure about that (potato chips and stuff). i don&#39;t think americas laziness has anything to do with anyones development. as far as politics go, we need to be developed there.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM POTATO CHIPS&#33;&#33;
I guess im not being clear enough, those countries are probably under more control then we are and therefore their everyday routene is different from ours, restricting them from the everyday activities that we perceive as relaxing or fun.

[The_Demon_Within]

Originally posted by 9.99repeating^32@Mar 25 2004, 02:20 AM
Let me ask you this:

If your kid was forced to hear(and many times out of peer pressure, say) "under Allah" or "under Buddha" every day(instead of "under God"), would you still want it in the pledge?
Allah is God, Allah means God in Islamic.
And Buddah isnt a God. Buddhism doesnt follow a God.
sorry jus had to add that.


edit: lol my post count is stuck at 1. thats odd, i guees im a permanewbie

[EXEcution]

Originally posted by The_Demon_Within+Mar 25 2004, 12:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The_Demon_Within &#064; Mar 25 2004, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-9.99repeating^32@Mar 25 2004, 02:20 AM
Let me ask you this:

If your kid was forced to hear(and many times out of peer pressure, say) "under Allah" or "under Buddha" every day(instead of "under God"), would you still want it in the pledge?
Allah is God, Allah means God in Islamic.
And Buddah isnt a God. Buddhism doesnt follow a God.
sorry jus had to add that.


edit: lol my post count is stuck at 1. thats odd, i guees im a permanewbie [/b][/quote]
When u post in offtopic ur post count doesnt increase&#33;
http://www.gamemecca.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29543

[BobtheCkroach]

Ok, people. The United States of America was founded under the belief that you should be able to choose which religeon you follow, and that you should be free of persecution for making that choice. It was not founded on the belief of Seperation of Church and State. That was added much later by a bunch of Supreme Court Justices. The original founding fathers fully intended to have the Christian God integrated into the United States government. The basis for the Declaration of Independence "all men are created equal" is from the Bible. All of the founding fathers were Christian, and they embedded their beliefs into the government. Until the Justices starting throwing rules, children even prayed in school. First of all, you child never has to say the Pledge when it&#39;s recited. I have no problem with the Pledge being taken out of school - if it offends people, fine. But they choose to live in America. The Pledge is the Pledge. The nation was founded under God. All of the fathers were Christian - the Christian founders didn&#39;t found the nation under Zeus, or Apollo, or Odin, but under the Christian God. With or without those 2 words, this country still shows it&#39;s religeous freedom. America still allows you to practice whatever religeon you want - if you can&#39;t stand the words "under God" that much, you always have the choice to move to a country that supports only your religeon. You always have the right to move back to China, or Yugoslavia, or whatever country might follow your religeon, and I&#39;m not bashing that at all. If you feel that&#39;s necessary, so be it. Of course, you will give up most of your other freedoms in doing so, but that&#39;s your choice.

Anyways, those are my thoughts.

[solid snake295]

personally i dont think saying the peldge of aleigence means anything, its just words right? what will happen if you recite it or not? abso-******&#39;-lutely nothing.
its the same as saying a prayer.
i&#39;ve preyed for people when they were in need of help or dying, and what happend? nothing at all. that is why i now choose to believe in nothing but taking action. why ask others (god) to fix your problems when you can do it yourself?

[Dan2]

Back in 1892, when the Pledge of Allegiance was witten, there was no mention of god. It wasn&#39;t until 1954 that Congress inserted it, after lobbying by religious leaders.

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01+Mar 25 2004, 03:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ME BIGGD01 @ Mar 25 2004, 03:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by PJ&#39;l_Master@Mar 25 2004, 03:27 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-ME BIGGD01@Mar 25 2004, 03:22 AM
i personally find people that have to make an argument over this dusgusting.&nbsp; first of all it says god and not budda christ jehova or santa clause.&nbsp; it&#39;s people that have to cause this bs to stir things up.&nbsp; look at the way the world is today.&nbsp; if your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught.&nbsp; america was built this way and for the liberals that can&#39;t deal with it should move to europe.&nbsp; i swear i have never met anyone to actually tell me that saying the pledge in school is a problem but wish i could and have this debate with them.&nbsp; if you can&#39;t deal with it go to another coutry and raise your kids.&nbsp; you think these freaks would rather cause problems with the schools and the education in this country but no, it&#39;s better to complain that the word god is in the poa.&nbsp; &nbsp; if you want to fuss about something, fuss about real problems.&nbsp; hell i can&#39;t wait until another 50 years so that white people are the minority and we can start getting all the extra benifits and free college and we can use affirmative action to get the jobs.&nbsp; at this point i just look at americans who let this happend with disgust and no longer support anyone.&nbsp; as far as schools go, i will be sending my kids to private school becuase of the way the public schools are run.&nbsp; our kids in this country may be wiser but they are not being educated the way they should be.&nbsp; that&#39;s fine for everyone elses kids being dumb with no innovative skills and all the other countries will be providng everything.&nbsp; here in ny, the mayor is looking to hold back the 3rd grade because they are stupid and the parents are arguing about it.&nbsp; duh, they can not read yet the parents want them to advance in a grade.&nbsp; this country sucks today because of what is going on and i could care less at this point what next they do.&nbsp; i will pay my taxes and raise my family with god in our house.&nbsp; i am sure my kids wont be shooting others in school and swearing and doing drugs.&nbsp; my wife and i will make sure our kids are raised the true american way which is the old american way and not this new wave america, killing and making the country weak.&nbsp; the next attack this country gets, i won&#39;t care as long as no one in my family is touched by it.&nbsp; for once i would love to see people getting together and fixing a real problem that will actually better this country but those days are long gone.&nbsp; can you think of the last thing this country has done to make it better??&nbsp; me either.
let it out brother :P

he is tryin to hold back the ENTIRE 3rd grade...thats LUDICROUS
think about it though. if the 3rd grade classes are not passing the test that would show they have the intelligence, would you want them to advance? don&#39;t you think that america has cheated just about everyone who has gone to school due to lack of profession. i know i should have learned more in school. with all the tax money being spent, should education be offering the finest in this great rich country? other countries laugh at us and sometimes you have to stand back to see why. look at india for instance. they are a well cultured and maintain very good discipline. the kids grow to be very intelligent and many doctors and engineers. here most parents take the easy way out and buy the kids playstation and game after game rather making sure the homework is done and/or looking over what&#39;s going on with their school work etc etc. ever wonder why kids are the way they are today? i know there are some good parents out there breaking their arse making sure their children are doing what needs to be done but the ones that don&#39;t ruin it for the others.

my daughter is 16 months old and i spend the time with her everyday to sing the abc&#39;s and once in awhile when she is in my office, teaching her computer parts. i know she doesnt understand but she will as she gets bigger. it&#39;s time that needs to be spent and not wasted on some liberal looking to stir crap up about god in the POA. i se ethey have no problem making money that says in god we trust. [/b][/quote]
i agree, if they arent smart enough to pass, dont pass them

BUT, i dont see how they could eliminate an entire graduating class, and think of how big the class the year after would be :wacko:

[Pure_Evil]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 10:41 PM


my daughter is 16 months old and i spend the time with her everyday to sing the abc&#39;s and once in awhile when she is in my office, teaching her computer parts. i know she doesnt understand but she will as she gets bigger. it&#39;s time that needs to be spent and not wasted on some liberal looking to stir crap up about god in the POA. i se ethey have no problem making money that says in god we trust.
That&#39;s the way to go BIGG&#39;s I started telling my son at age of 6 months that moking is bad and say no to drugs. Sining the ABC&#39;s is great, Paul even had a dancing Elmo that sang it and he loved singing along.

One of my proudest moments with Paul was while driving home, we stopped at a traffic light behind a utility truck. "Paul, what is that?" "A truck daddy", "and what&#39;s on the back of that truck?", "The American Flag", then he sat up straight in the car seat and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, :wootrock: he wasn&#39;t promted, he was proud, he was 3years old and only going to school for about 3-4 months :thumbs: Not only was I proud of him for knowing it, but saying it proudly. I was also impressed with his school for teaching it.

as for 999&#39;s remarks, if it said under Alah, then you bet your ****ing ass that I would say it and say it proudly if that&#39;s what our Country believed in. If you have 100 people who are asked this question, and 98 say they&#39;re fine with it as it stands, and 2 say "no, I find it offensive" then 2 me, those 2 people should learn how to deal with it, not force the other 98 to bend to them. To me there are too many pussy&#39;s in this nation who can&#39;t just deal with the majority and need attention.

Bigg&#39;s made a fine point about failing the third grade, if the kids aren&#39;t learning, tough, stay where you are until you pass&#33; This is what parents should be fighting over, not under God :WTF: Just shows how stupid people can be.

With all the problems in this country that actually cost people their lives, and these morons are making a stand over "under God" is rediculous.

America, love it or leave it, and it&#39;s too bad that there are a whole bunch of people that just wont Get The **** out&#33;

[Caged Anger]

i voted yes by accident. I gotta say that as a catholic, i would have to say no. But lately, i have been completely uncertain as to what to think about it...

[Asian Invasian]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 08:41 PM
here most parents take the easy way out and buy the kids playstation and game after game rather making sure the homework is done and/or looking over what&#39;s going on with their school work etc etc.
well on this coment id have to say all i do is play video games its not about the games its about the effort most kids just figure not try. As for me i play so many games and watch tv thats all I do. A lot of my friends at school will say ohh your just smart because your Asian, well they just don&#39;t try on anything hard enough, so in a way on your other points your right. All i see is cheaters in my school thet copy papers before the class starts as for me i do that only if i forgot my hw which rarely happens. And about the video games they make no difference on my grades and i play them a lot. I maintain a 4.0 :)

[Pure_Evil]

Originally posted by <Asian - Invasian>+Mar 25 2004, 08:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (<Asian - Invasian> @ Mar 25 2004, 08:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 08:41 PM
here most parents take the easy way out and buy the kids playstation and game after game rather making sure the homework is done and/or looking over what&#39;s going on with their school work etc etc.
well on this coment id have to say all i do is play video games its not about the games its about the effort most kids just figure not try. As for me i play so many games and watch tv thats all I do. A lot of my friends at school will say ohh your just smart because your Asian, well they just don&#39;t try on anything hard enough, so in a way on your other points your right. All i see is cheaters in my school thet copy papers before the class starts as for me i do that only if i forgot my hw which rarely happens. And about the video games they make no difference on my grades and i play them a lot. I maintain a 4.0 :) [/b][/quote]
Good for you&#33; But everyone is different, some people just can&#39;t retain info no matter how hard they try.

But I get pissed on how my ex just lets Paul watch TV for hours on end, and now, even in the van. To me, he&#39;s not going to benifit from it at this age. AI, I&#39;m sure when you were younger, you weren&#39;t watching TV all the time, I&#39;m guessing you were quite creative as a child??

[Sepra]

Hell No :wave:

[OUTLAWS 9.99repeating^32]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 10:22 PM
i personally find people that have to make an argument over this dusgusting. first of all it says god and not budda christ jehova or santa clause. it&#39;s people that have to cause this bs to stir things up. look at the way the world is today. if your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught. america was built this way and for the liberals that can&#39;t deal with it should move to europe. i swear i have never met anyone to actually tell me that saying the pledge in school is a problem but wish i could and have this debate with them. if you can&#39;t deal with it go to another coutry and raise your kids. you think these freaks would rather cause problems with the schools and the education in this country but no, it&#39;s better to complain that the word god is in the poa. if you want to fuss about something, fuss about real problems. hell i can&#39;t wait until another 50 years so that white people are the minority and we can start getting all the extra benifits and free college and we can use affirmative action to get the jobs. at this point i just look at americans who let this happend with disgust and no longer support anyone. as far as schools go, i will be sending my kids to private school becuase of the way the public schools are run. our kids in this country may be wiser but they are not being educated the way they should be. that&#39;s fine for everyone elses kids being dumb with no innovative skills and all the other countries will be providng everything. here in ny, the mayor is looking to hold back the 3rd grade because they are stupid and the parents are arguing about it. duh, they can not read yet the parents want them to advance in a grade. this country sucks today because of what is going on and i could care less at this point what next they do. i will pay my taxes and raise my family with god in our house. i am sure my kids wont be shooting others in school and swearing and doing drugs. my wife and i will make sure our kids are raised the true american way which is the old american way and not this new wave america, killing and making the country weak. the next attack this country gets, i won&#39;t care as long as no one in my family is touched by it. for once i would love to see people getting together and fixing a real problem that will actually better this country but those days are long gone. can you think of the last thing this country has done to make it better?? me either.
OK, there are a lot of points in this entire thread, and some very good points. Before I begin with a more detailed explanation as to why I think that it should be removed, I would like to say thank you to Bigg, BobtheCkroach, and Pure Evil for sharing their opinions.

To begin, let me say that Dan2 has brought up a very good point. And that is that initailly, the words "under God" were not in the Pledge. To show your alliegance to the flag back then did not mean that you agreed that America was in fact under a God. The writers of the pledge did not feel that God had anything to do with America, despite arguments which state that "America was founded on a God". It was only until the Cold War, when lobbyists wanted to create a clear separation between America and the USSR that the words "under God" were added to the Pledge.

In addition, the main argument here is whether or not this is a violation of separation of Church and State(after all, this is what the lawyer from California is brining to the Surpreme Court). In America, everyone has the right to believe whatever religion they want(this includes Athiesm). Since the Pledge of Allegiance is considered to be part of the "State", one may apply this question of whether or not Church and State are being violated. What one does when one recites the Pledge of Allegiance is swearing your allegiance to a nation under God. The Pledge makes this very clear. This Pledge means that one accepts the fact that there is a God and that He is over America.

So with that in mind, imagine this scenario. Imagine an Elementary School teacher(who is being paid by taxpayers) leading and teaching his/her students the Pledge. The students eventually memerize the Pledge and accept the words "under God". But in this classroom of theists there is one child who has a different view on the world than her classmates. He/she attempts to share her belief with his/her fellow classmates, but all of them impose their belief on him/her. The other children eventually surpress the child&#39;s beliefs, and she becomes a theist like the rest of them. To me at least, not only is this not right, but it is unconstitutional. The child&#39;s freedom of religion was violated. This is my central point.

One could also make the argument that the words "under God" are benign and are part of a traditional practice. I do not see this as a just and sound argument. If one were to live in the 1850s, it would be like saying, "I believe that slavery is a benign and traditional practice and should be continued for the rest of America&#39;s future". There are plenty of other examples. "I believe that gladiator combat(and the slaying of slaves) is a benign and traditional practice and should be a part of Roman culture for years to come". Also, "I believe that throwing Christians to the lions is a benign and traditional practice and should continue for years to come". Just because something is "traditional" does not make it right. Not only that, as I stated earlier, the fact of the matter is that there have been more years without the words "under God" in the Pledge than with it; so it is certainly not a traditional practice to begin with.

Another argument that one could make is Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O&#39;Connor&#39;s argument, that "We have so many references to God in our daily lives today". This is true, examples include "In God we trust" on currency, and government proclamations with the words "In the year of the Lord...". Again, just because it is a part of daily life, does not make it right. An Athiest can be an American citizen, yet when he/she holds his/her nation&#39;s currency in their hand, they disagree with the trust in God. In fact, they have no trust in God. Yet is says that "we" do. Who is "we"? It is American citizens. So according to that logic, if Americans believe in and trust in God, an Athiest is not an American citizen. However, the Constitution insures a freedom of religion to all American citizens(there is nothing that states that one must believe in a religion or God or anything for that matter to be a citizen), therefore the Constitution is being contradicted by this statement on our currency. It follows that this too should be removed, as well as "In the year of the Lord..." from government proclamations.

These are essentially my arguments and counter-arguments as to why I believe that the words "under God" should be removed from the Pledge of Alligance. I will now offer some comments and questions to the members who responded to this thread.

To MEBIGGD01: I would have to completely disagree with your statement, "If your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught". I was raised Athiest and have strong morals just like anyone else. My parents taught me what was right and what was wrong. I did not need any religion to follow in order to learn morals, and I&#39;m sure that there are plenty of others who have done the same. "I swear i have never met anyone to actually tell me that saying the pledge in school is a problem but wish i could and have this debate with them". Well, I guess you met one of them. I hated saying the Pledge of Allegiance all through my Elementary and Middle School years. I only said it to "fit in" with the other kids and not act strange. In High School, I never said the pledge. I listened, but didn&#39;t actually recite the Pledge, because it was stating something that I didn&#39;t believe in. If the words "under God" were removed, I would have no problem swearing my Allegiance to this country that I love so much. You make some other comments which are more off-topic than anything else so I will leave those alone; but I find your response to be inconclusive. Why do you feel that the words "under God" should be left in?

To BobtheCkroach: "First of all, you child never has to say the Pledge when it&#39;s recited". In a pratical sense however, I would have to disagree with this. I know from my own experience, although nobody threatened me if I did not recite the Pledge, I recited it out of outside pressure. So I would tend to disagree with you there. "With or without those 2 words, this country still shows it&#39;s religeous freedom". Again I would disagree, which is essentially my main point, that religious freedom is violated with those words, and words on other government documents. "America still allows you to practice whatever religeon you want - if you can&#39;t stand the words "under God" that much, you always have the choice to move to a country that supports only your religeon". I can see your point here, but I don&#39;t know how practical it is. Overall, I think you have a sound argument, which can work either way, for or agaisnt the removal of the words.

To Pure Evil: "If you have 100 people who are asked this question, and 98 say they&#39;re fine with it as it stands, and 2 say "no, I find it offensive" then 2 me, those 2 people should learn how to deal with it, not force the other 98 to bend to them". You&#39;re right, this country is a democratic republic, and something like that would be ridiculous. But this isn&#39;t about a minority expressing an opinion agaisnt a majority, it is about a violation of the constitution. "With all the problems in this country that actually cost people their lives, and these morons are making a stand over "under God" is ridiculous". Why do you feel that mending things to fit the Constitution is a waste of time or is "ridiculous"? It&#39;s not like this is stopping anyone else from alleviating other problems that America has. You have some other comments, but I will leave those alone. If I am reading you correctly, you feel that the words "under God" should be left in because it is what "our country believes in". Well, how is that justified? Where does it say that America believes in God?

Thanks again for responding and posting your opinions and offering your arguments. I hope you could understand my argument, and I hope that you take it in an objective manner and consider its validity. Thanks.


Sources:
Azstarnet (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCOTUS_PLEDGE_OF_ALLEGIANCE?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME)
MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542685/)

[Pure_Evil]

So with that in mind, imagine this scenario. Imagine an Elementary School teacher(who is being paid by taxpayers) leading and teaching his/her students the Pledge. The students eventually memerize the Pledge and accept the words "under God". But in this classroom of theists there is one child who has a different view on the world than her classmates. He/she attempts to share her belief with his/her fellow classmates, but all of them impose their belief on him/her. The other children eventually surpress the child&#39;s beliefs, and she becomes a theist like the rest of them. To me at least, not only is this not right, but it is unconstitutional. The child&#39;s freedom of religion was violated. This is my central point.

If a teenage kid who just hits puberty decideds he needs to maturbate in class and to him it&#39;s perfectly natural :rolleyes: and it doesn&#39;t affect his grades, and the teacher and the rest of the class feels it&#39;s not right, you think that one kid should convince the rest of the class to masturbate, or just be left alone.


To me at least, not only is this not right, but it is unconstitutional. The child&#39;s freedom of religion was violated.

But it&#39;s ok to violate the rights of the religous rights? Bottom line is you can&#39;t please everyone, if the majority wants it to stay, then the rest can deal with it. It&#39;s part of our way of life as Americans, the pledge is to promote patriotism, something that&#39;s missing in the USA. It is impossible for the constitution to be read to make everyone happen, right now the FCC is messing with freedom of speach, there are always going to be things that people will want to alter, but to me, this issue is sad, people need to toughen up&#33;

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/gbusa.gif

[Nick]

:blink: HEY &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;....what about the tooth fairy ?????? :oooo:

[OUTLAWS 9.99repeating^32]

Originally posted by Pure_Evil@Mar 25 2004, 10:06 AM
But it&#39;s ok to violate the rights of the religous rights? Bottom line is you can&#39;t please everyone, if the majority wants it to stay, then the rest can deal with it.
No, what I mean is that everyone is entitled to have the same Constitutional rights, regardless of whether or not they are in a majority or not. What religous rights are you talking about that are being violated? Is it a constiutional right that God should be in government(if that is what you are trying to say by "ok to violate the rights of the religous rights")?

Thanks for replying by the way.

[Pure_Evil]

Originally posted by 9.99repeating^32+Mar 25 2004, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (9.99repeating^32 @ Mar 25 2004, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Pure_Evil@Mar 25 2004, 10:06 AM
But it&#39;s ok to violate the rights of the religous rights? Bottom line is you can&#39;t please everyone, if the majority wants it to stay, then the rest can deal with it.
No, what I mean is that everyone is entitled to have the same Constitutional rights, regardless of whether or not they are in a majority or not. What religous rights are you talking about that are being violated? Is it a constiutional right that God should be in government(if that is what you are trying to say by "ok to violate the rights of the religous rights")?

Thanks for replying by the way. [/b][/quote]
The rights of the religious people who want it in the pledge and want to say it everyday.

[Fantum309]

Originally posted by ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 11:22 PM
if your family is not religous or have no belief, then morals are not taught.
Sorry BiggD, I would have to disagree with you on this statement. I think I get what your saying, but I don&#39;t think you have to believe or be religious to have morals&#33; Conversly, there are many religious people without morals&#33;

just my 2 cents&#33;



peace&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by Pure_Evil+Mar 25 2004, 11:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pure_Evil @ Mar 25 2004, 11:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 10:41 PM


my daughter is&nbsp; 16 months old and i spend the time with her everyday to sing&nbsp; the abc&#39;s and once in awhile when she is in my office, teaching her computer parts.&nbsp; i know she doesnt understand but she will as she gets bigger.&nbsp; it&#39;s time that needs to be spent and not wasted on some liberal looking to stir crap up about god in&nbsp; the POA.&nbsp; i se ethey have no problem making money that says in god we trust.

One of my proudest moments with Paul was while driving home, we stopped at a traffic light behind a utility truck. "Paul, what is that?" "A truck daddy", "and what&#39;s on the back of that truck?", "The American Flag", then he sat up straight in the car seat and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, :wootrock: he wasn&#39;t promted, he was proud, he was 3years old and only going to school for about 3-4 months :thumbs: Not only was I proud of him for knowing it, but saying it proudly. I was also impressed with his school for teaching it.

[/b][/quote]
3 years old?

holy crap your son is a Genius :w00t:

[PJ'l_Master]

good job at keeping the thread calm guys. it hasnt degraded into mindless insulting like most debates do...GREAT WORK

(I Love having debates about stuff)

[Pure_Evil]

Originally posted by PJ&#39;l_Master+Mar 25 2004, 11:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PJ&#39;l_Master @ Mar 25 2004, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Pure_Evil@Mar 25 2004, 11:49 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 10:41 PM


my daughter is* 16 months old and i spend the time with her everyday to sing* the abc&#39;s and once in awhile when she is in my office, teaching her computer parts.* i know she doesnt understand but she will as she gets bigger.* it&#39;s time that needs to be spent and not wasted on some liberal looking to stir crap up about god in* the POA.* i se ethey have no problem making money that says in god we trust.

One of my proudest moments with Paul was while driving home, we stopped at a traffic light behind a utility truck. "Paul, what is that?" "A truck daddy", "and what&#39;s on the back of that truck?", "The American Flag", then he sat up straight in the car seat and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, :wootrock: he wasn&#39;t promted, he was proud, he was 3years old and only going to school for about 3-4 months :thumbs: Not only was I proud of him for knowing it, but saying it proudly. I was also impressed with his school for teaching it.


3 years old?

holy crap your son is a Genius :w00t: [/b][/quote]
I wish, actually, Paul has a condition called Pervasive Developmental Disorder and that&#39;s why at age 3, he started school. But Little Evil is doing real well, and has come a long way thanks to all the extra assistance.

I figure by the end of Baseball season, he&#39;ll have the National Anthem down pat too.

That is unless some of the foriegn ball players aren&#39;t offended by it :shifty: :oooo:

[PJ'l_Master]

Originally posted by Pure_Evil+Mar 25 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pure_Evil @ Mar 25 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by PJ&#39;l_Master@Mar 25 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Pure_Evil@Mar 25 2004, 11:49 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-ME BIGGD01@Mar 24 2004, 10:41 PM


my daughter is* 16 months old and i spend the time with her everyday to sing* the abc&#39;s and once in awhile when she is in my office, teaching her computer parts.* i know she doesnt understand but she will as she gets bigger.* it&#39;s time that needs to be spent and not wasted on some liberal looking to stir crap up about god in* the POA.* i se ethey have no problem making money that says in god we trust.

One of my proudest moments with Paul was while driving home, we stopped at a traffic light behind a utility truck. "Paul, what is that?" "A truck daddy", "and what&#39;s on the back of that truck?", "The American Flag", then he sat up straight in the car seat and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, :wootrock: he wasn&#39;t promted, he was proud, he was 3years old and only going to school for about 3-4 months :thumbs: Not only was I proud of him for knowing it, but saying it proudly. I was also impressed with his school for teaching it.


3 years old?

holy crap your son is a Genius :w00t:
I wish, actually, Paul has a condition called Pervasive Developmental Disorder and that&#39;s why at age 3, he started school. But Little Evil is doing real well, and has come a long way thanks to all the extra assistance.

I figure by the end of Baseball season, he&#39;ll have the National Anthem down pat too.

That is unless some of the foriegn ball players aren&#39;t offended by it :shifty: :oooo: [/b][/quote]
:rofl:

[Thundarr]

9.999, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that BIGGD is wrong when he says that you must be raised in a god-fearing household in order to have morals... I was raised in much the same way as you, actually it wasn&#39;t so much Atheist, but we did not go to church nor was God part of our discussions until I gort much older and asked questions and began to explore other religions, etc and I will leave it at that regarding my beliefs... :thumbs:

I&#39;m sorry Pure, but I have to disagree with you that just because a majority want their way the the ones who do not agree should just suck it up... Honestly, I don&#39;t really think the Under God thing is that big a deal because I remember that as a child, I really didn&#39;t even understand what I was reciting. It was simply a thing I memorized and said every morning at school... I do believe in a separation of church and state and if my tax dollars are paying for education, I would prefer that religion were not included in that education... That&#39;s what private schooling is for.... Parents can decide if they want their children to learn about other religions or not and then once kids are old enough, I think they should have the right to find out about other religiopns if they choose to, but I don&#39;t think it should be required in any way shape or form. :hmmm:

Bigg, I really hope you were only talking about SOME liberals because sweeping generalizations are my biggest pet peeve, ever... :unsure:

[Pure_Evil]

I do believe in a separation of church and state and if my tax dollars are paying for education, I would prefer that religion were not included in that education... That&#39;s what private schooling is for....

Not all Parents can afford to send their children to private school, if they want it said in public schools, it&#39;s their right too, after all, they also pay for that education.

I don&#39;t think the phrase "under God" in the pledge is teaching religeon, what you said is a perfect example of people blowing something way out of proportion. If you don&#39;t believe in God, then God is just a word in that phrase, when I went to school it was never a issue, but now too many people want the world to change just for them.

[TheUltimateWarrior]

IF faith was easy everybody would believe&#33;