Great Debate PART DEUX!! plus 1

[CaptainKeyes]

so, let the debating on the debate begin
4 more years!! :D

[Dangerous Dan]

is it just me, or did bush say he was "working with Canada" to get the flu vaccinations back to the usual amount? doesn't that contradict him disliking Canada's medical institutions?

plz correct me if i'm over looking something :confused:

[Slice]

is it just me, or did bush say he was "working with Canada" to get the flu vaccinations back to the usual amount? doesn't that contradict him disliking Canada's medical institutions?

plz correct me if i'm over looking something :confused:What do you expect from the genius?

Oh and yes that is what he had said to answer your question.

[CaptainKeyes]

a lighthearted last few minutes.

[Pure_Evil]

I liked how Bush handled the minimum wage issue, by talking about No Child left Behind.. completely dodged the question :thumbs:

I'm glad those are done :thumbs:

[Pure_Evil]

We are all just sheep.

heh heh heh, he said sheep

if we were all sheep, Goober, LaSH, Jiminator, Lone Wolf, and myself would be sooo much happier!http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/zensiert/sheep.gif

[OPTIMOOSE]

I wonder if anyone really believes that either candidate is worthy of the presidency. I think we should just revolt and take over the government and rebuild it from the ground up.

I also have issues with the electorial voting system. Yes, it keeps things fair between states, but does it really represent the popular vote? No. Why shouldn't every Ameriacan have an equal vote? Why is it that a state that has 10 million people has the same clout as a state that has 100 million people? Is that fair? No. The way things are now with the electorial system, if you live in California your vote counts much less than someone voting in New Hampshire.

But I wouldn't complain about any of this if we could just get our sh*t together and develop alternative energy sources. For God's sake that is the biggest slap in the face to Americans right now. Oil-based energy is so obselete that it is simply a joke, but no one sees it. How the heck do you think we got the Mars rovers all that way...on desiel fuel? ROFL. We are all just sheep. Our political system is as bad or worse than any religion that we may currently be bashing. :down:
Welcome back psycho dad :D

[ME BIGGD01]

is it just me, or did bush say he was "working with Canada" to get the flu vaccinations back to the usual amount? doesn't that contradict him disliking Canada's medical institutions?

plz correct me if i'm over looking something :confused:
dd, bush never put down canada. what he did say in the last debate was regarding medication that gets passed through canada. the comment was bases strictly on medication that is not inspected while being imported from somewhere into canada and then into america.

[Pure_Evil]

dd, bush never put down canada. what he did say in the last debate was regarding medication that gets passed through canada. the comment was bases strictly on medication that is not inspected while being imported from somewhere into canada and then into america.

We have a severe crisis on the flu vacinations this year. I was talking to my Grandmother last night, her and my Grandfather are in their 90's. Their doctor couldn't get them one for a few weeks, so they saw a add that the senior center was giving out shots. When she called them, they had 360 slots filled already and they had no more available. The next day, it was cancelled because they couldn't get the vaccine.

Frankly, I don't give a rats ass where they get it. If the government has to waffle to get it, FINE. Everyone needs to recognize that positions change as the world changes. To knock Bush because he's trying to get flu shots from canada is absurd!
yes, that's me supporting Bush

[ME BIGGD01]

what is the problem they are saying caused this issue? why does it take so long to make?

[Pure_Evil]

what is the problem they are saying caused this issue? why does it take so long to make?
LONDON, Oct. 8 -- British health officials said Friday that their American counterparts were informed in mid-September that problems at a drug manufacturing plant in northwest England could disrupt influenza vaccine supplies to the United States.

Records at Britain's Department of Health show that the plant's owner, Chiron Corp., warned officials of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the British Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency on Sept. 13 that potential contamination problems remained unresolved at the plant, according to Alison Langley, a senior spokeswoman at the department.

The British account is at odds with statements by U.S. health officials that they were caught by surprise by the British regulatory agency's decision this week to suspend vaccine manufacturing for three months at the Liverpool plant. It had been expected to provide 48 million doses of flu vaccine to the United States, about half of the U.S. supply this year.

Unlike the United States, health officials in Britain responded to the warning by making "plans by contacting other manufacturers," Langley said.

In Washington on Friday, federal health officials told an emergency hearing in the House Committee on Government Reform that the system for procuring vaccines for the American public has been getting increasingly fragile for years but that none of the proposed solutions are likely to fix the problem quickly.



Does it piss anyone else off that we even get our flu vaccine from overseas??? :mad: :down:

[CaptainKeyes]

yep, i think we should rely on overseas vaccines as a last resort personally.

[Death Engineer]

What do you propose we do to stop people from buying drugs cheaper from England? Isn't that what you mean? A free market is what allows companies to buy from where they can get the most value. It is likely that the company in England was offering a good value (albeit, too good) and that is why we were using them.

[Thundarr]

What is a shame is that the reason Bush said that many companies won't make the flu vaccine is potential lawsuits...

"We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine.

One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law." Quote from debate transcript from last night...

[Slice]

We have a severe crisis on the flu vacinations this year. I was talking to my Grandmother last night, her and my Grandfather are in their 90's. Their doctor couldn't get them one for a few weeks, so they saw a add that the senior center was giving out shots. When she called them, they had 360 slots filled already and they had no more available. The next day, it was cancelled because they couldn't get the vaccine.

Frankly, I don't give a rats ass where they get it. If the government has to waffle to get it, FINE. Everyone needs to recognize that positions change as the world changes. To knock Bush because he's trying to get flu shots from canada is absurd!
yes, that's me supporting Bush
I don't think anyone is knocking him for trying to get flu shots from Canada, we are knocking him because just last week he said Canada wasn't an option for drug importation period. Now this week he flip flopped and said oh yeah let's try Canada. I find it very ironic. My position has always been to allow US to buy from Canada.

[CaptainKeyes]

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004c.html
"Just want to make sure they're safe. When a drug comes in from Canada, I want to make sure it cures you and doesn't kill you.

And that's why the FDA and that's why the surgeon general are looking very carefully to make sure it can be done in a safe way. I've got an obligation to make sure our government does everything we can to protect you.

And what my worry is is that, you know, it looks like it's from Canada, and it might be from a third world.

And we've just got to make sure, before somebody thinks they're buying a product, that it works. And that's why we're doing what we're doing.
Now, it may very well be here in December you'll hear me say, I think there's a safe way to do it."

Slice .. he never said not an option, everyone here knows what was said... but you insist he said absoloutely not an option!
(sigh)

[ME BIGGD01]

captain, did you get my pm? please read it:thumbs: .

[Slice]

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004c.html
"Just want to make sure they're safe. When a drug comes in from Canada, I want to make sure it cures you and doesn't kill you.

And that's why the FDA and that's why the surgeon general are looking very carefully to make sure it can be done in a safe way. I've got an obligation to make sure our government does everything we can to protect you.

And what my worry is is that, you know, it looks like it's from Canada, and it might be from a third world.

And we've just got to make sure, before somebody thinks they're buying a product, that it works. And that's why we're doing what we're doing.
Now, it may very well be here in December you'll hear me say, I think there's a safe way to do it."

Slice .. he never said not an option, everyone here knows what was said... but you insist he said absoloutely not an option!
(sigh)
Did I quote him as saying that? Those were his lame reasons for not allowing the US to buy from Canada. So therefore it is not an option for you or me or anyone else is it? The big picture is that Merk and the other big companies have the President in their pocket and lobby to keep Canada as not being an option for drug importation.

[UZI]

Slice,
Please go back and read up on the drug situation. Someone has already put it in this thread. The issue is that drugs coming from Canada are not being made in Canada. Many of the drugs coming from Canada into the US are being made in third world countries where they are not required to follow cGMP (current Good Manufacturing Practices) or CR 21 (FDA guidelines for drug and excipient manufacturing). I work for a company that makes the raw materials for many drug companies. These third world drugs have contaminates and often have incorrect dosages of the active ingredient. That can mean death or serious health effects for those who take them.

This is not a political spin issue. It can be a serious health issue for our country. It is ridiculus to make this a political issue. We already import Canadian vaccines and drugs which are made at Canadian companies that are good quality and safe.

[CaptainKeyes]

your really reaching slice
so be it

[Slice]

Slice,
Please go back and read up on the drug situation. Someone has already put it in this thread. The issue is that drugs coming from Canada are not being made in Canada. Many of the drugs coming from Canada into the US are being made in third world countries where they are not required to follow cGMP (current Good Manufacturing Practices) or CR 21 (FDA guidelines for drug and excipient manufacturing). I work for a company that makes the raw materials for many drug companies. These third world drugs have contaminates and often have incorrect dosages of the active ingredient. That can mean death or serious health effects for those who take them.

This is not a political spin issue. It can be a serious health issue for our country. It is ridiculus to make this a political issue. We already import Canadian vaccines and drugs which are made at Canadian companies that are good quality and safe.
Yeah how about all those Canadians dying from these horrible drugs.:rolleyes: It is a political issue because the current policy sucks. Further wouldn't you say you might be a bit biased because your company would be effected if the US were able to buy them elsewhere?

[UZI]

What is a shame is that the reason Bush said that many companies won't make the flu vaccine is potential lawsuits...

Your right Thundarr. It is a big issues with medical specialist as well. Just try to find a doctor who will deliver a non-routine baby (breach potential, rotated, early term, toximia). There are fewer and fewer of them because they can't afford the malpractice insurance.

Glad my wife and I had our kids back when they were still plentiful. I don't know what young couples are doing now days.

[Slice]

your really reaching slice
so be it
Um, yeah that's it. Like I really feel the need to reach....

[UZI]

Yeah how about all those Canadians dying from these horrible drugs.:rolleyes: It is a political issue because the current policy sucks. Further wouldn't you say you might be a bit biased because your company would be effected if the US were able to buy them elsewhere?

No, because we are international. We are base in third world countries and will make them there as well. We also have manufacturing in Canada, so my company benefits either way. Bigger profits for our company to make them outside of the US. Try doing a little more research.

[Slice]

No, because we are international. We are base in third world countries and will make them there as well. We also have manufacturing in Canada, so my company benefits either way. Bigger profits for our company to make them outside of the US. Try doing a little more research.
Your company would be impacted if we only had to pay 1/3 the cost in the States that we pay now if we were buying from Canada. So no, it's not either way. You see, the demand would be the same but the price for people in the United States would be 2/3 cheaper.

On a side note if your Company is based in third world countries doesn't that contradict what you stated about third world country drugs coming in to Canada?

[UZI]

Guessing that you won't do any research. Let me continue. We don't make the large profit the drug companies make just by supplying raw materials. Drug companies bare the bulk of the risk from litigation and spend the millions of $$$ researching and developing the technology. Therefore they take most of the profit margin.

Also, as you snag away their profits by allowing generics into the country that do not honor the drug companies patents, they will no longer afford the reseach costs and the new drug pipeline will dry up. Then your family members die because Canada and third world countries do not have the knowledge and capability to develop the new cutting edge drugs.

All of this crap sounds good in a TV debate, but the reality is that most of these issues go much deeper.

Same deep issues exist in the Energy Business. Why was LNG not pursued in previous administrations (Clinton as one of them). Because until natural gas went from $2/MMBTU to $6/MMBTU, the profit margin simply did not exist. In the mean time, China bought up the fleets of ships capable of carrying the high pressure LNG. Over the last 10 years, there has been a huge increase in using cheaper natural gas in power plants, and moving away from environmentally unfriendly coal and Nuclear.

Companies and administrations drive towards low cost models because profit margins are larger. Small business owners pursue higher margin options the same way larger companies do. You as a consumer pursue cheaper products so that your money goes further. And is bull to say that smaller companies have Bush or any other previous President in their pocket. Lame at best. Trying to blame Bush for companies that pursue economically favorable models just does not make sense.

Try reading just one issue of the Wall Street Journal or a true business publicaton. You will get less spin and more reality. They are mostly objective because businesses drive for profit, and biased information makes for bad business choices.

[UZI]

Your company would be impacted if we only had to pay 1/3 the cost in the States that we pay now if we were buying from Canada. So no, it's not either way. You see, the demand would be the same but the price for people in the United States would be 2/3 cheaper.

On a side note if your Company is based in third world countries doesn't that contradict what you stated about third world country drugs coming in to Canada?

No, because we don't make the final drugs. Companies owned by third world countryies do all of the final mixing and formulations. I have seen their operations and it is scary at best. People with fecal matter under their finger nails touching your drugs. I won't take those medicines.

No, we would not get 1/3 less. Because we would be making the stuff outside the US at slave labor rates and with less regulation (would not have to meet FDA guidelines anymore. Our profits would pretty much stay fixed because of the fixed cost difference leading to the final margin. Business is about margin - try studying business models a little more.

[Slice]

Guessing that you won't do any research. Let me continue. We don't make the large profit the drug companies make just by supplying raw materials. Drug companies bare the bulk of the risk from litigation and spend the millions of $$$ researching and developing the technology. Therefore they take most of the profit margin.

Also, as you snag away their profits by allowing generics into the country that do not honor the drug companies patents, they will no longer afford the reseach costs and the new drug pipeline will dry up. Then your family members die because Canada and third world countries do not have the knowledge and capability to develop the new cutting edge drugs.

All of this crap sounds good in a TV debate, but the reality is that most of these issues go much deeper.

Same deep issues exist in the Energy Business. Why was LNG not pursued in previous administrations (Clinton as one of them). Because until natural gas went from $2/MMBTU to $6/MMBTU, the profit margin simply did not exist. In the mean time, China bought up the fleets of ships capable of carrying the high pressure LNG. Over the last 10 years, there has been a huge increase in using cheaper natural gas in power plants, and moving away from environmentally unfriendly coal and Nuclear.

Companies and administrations drive towards low cost models because profit margins are larger. Small business owners pursue higher margin options the same way larger companies do. You as a consumer pursue cheaper products so that your money goes further. And is bull to say that smaller companies have Bush or any other previous President in their pocket. Lame at best. Trying to blame Bush for companies that pursue economically favorable models just does not make sense.

Try reading just one issue of the Wall Street Journal or a true business publicaton. You will get less spin and more reality. They are mostly objective because businesses drive for profit, and biased information makes for bad business choices.
What I find amazing is you seem to think that just because the FDA regulates the drug it makes it "safe". How about Vioxx? Just pulled off the shelves voluntarily by Merck. I bet you can figure out why they pulled it off voluntarily as well. If you think for one second that The Wall Street Journal (which I read once in a while) really has true insight as to what these companies are doing than I have to take your posts with a grain of salt.

[UZI]

Dang man, you don't have anything right. Merc pulled it because the active drug caused the heart issues. Not because it was manufactured wrong. And it was a cutting edge drug, so it had very little FDA testing. That is because everyone wants to get it to market quickly. The sick people want it quickly so that they can get better. The company because they need to quickly recover investment. FDA because of the public pressure. Other companies besides Merc have products using the same active ingredient mechanism.

You are hopeless. It is pointless to discuss with you. You have no desire to learn information.

Have a good evening.

[Slice]

No, because we don't make the final drugs. Companies owned by third world countryies do all of the final mixing and formulations. I have seen their operations and it is scary at best. People with fecal matter under their finger nails touching your drugs. I won't take those medicines.

No, we would not get 1/3 less. Because we would be making the stuff outside the US at slave labor rates and with less regulation (would not have to meet FDA guidelines anymore. Our profits would pretty much stay fixed because of the fixed cost difference leading to the final margin. Business is about margin - try studying business models a little more.
Business is about supply and demand. Thanks for all of your little suggestions as to what I should be doing more, but if I followed them I would be poor.

[Slice]

Dang man, you don't have anything right. Merc pulled it because the active drug caused the heart issues. Not because it was manufactured wrong. And it was a cutting edge drug, so it had very little FDA testing. That is because everyone wants to get it to market quickly. The sick people want it quickly so that they can get better. The company because they need to quickly recover investment. FDA because of the public pressure. Other companies besides Merc have products using the same active ingredient mechanism.

You are hopeless. It is pointless to discuss with you. You have no desire to learn information.

Have a good evening.
Really, when in fact back in 2001 the FDA stated there was great concern that it could increase the risk of heart attack and stroke, yet they let it on the market anyways. Oh and as you say, try doing some reasearch.

[TheMaster]

You are hopeless. It is pointless to discuss with you. You have no desire to learn information.

Have a good evening.

I thought SALvation recently said not to personally attack other people in political discussions on GameMecca. Maybe it's just me but, why do I get the impression that you did personally attack Slice with that statement? Seems to me if anyone is talking politics one way or another they are interested in the facts.



This is a notice that GM rules will be applied to these threads also. That means you can feel free to discuss whatever you want, but if your post turns into a personal attack on a GM member, you will be PM warned, followed by a vacation, followed by a very lengthy vacation. We haven't banned anyone in a long time here but I have no problem dusting off the button for even forum regulars.

[JIMINATOR]

that's an opinion, now if he was saying that he would be going to florida to kick his ass, that would be something to ban over

[TheMaster]

Ah yes thx Jim for clearing it up. I thought something was right about his post. ;) No offense meant to Uzi.

[Thundarr]

Your right Thundarr. It is a big issues with medical specialist as well. Just try to find a doctor who will deliver a non-routine baby (breach potential, rotated, early term, toximia). There are fewer and fewer of them because they can't afford the malpractice insurance.

Glad my wife and I had our kids back when they were still plentiful. I don't know what young couples are doing now days.


When I have a child, I'm going with a midwife if I have that option... :thumbs: