Not sure how to ...

[FUS1ON]

Not sure how to feel after reading this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/26/world/main663057.shtml

It's like they are saying "We'll take all the money you want to send us, just work your ass off and get the hell out as soon as possible" and "Sure you can send your soldiers to help us even thought they are in danger of being shot by rebels and oh yeah, they can't carry weapons to defend themselves"

The Indonesian government is so paranoid that when the US wanted to continue routine training mission for their pilots, they made them move the carrier out of Indonesian airspace.

[PJ'l_Master]

why the in the heck do we think that they should have to let us use their airspace for missions to give them aid at a time like this

[Death Engineer]

Easy with the language PJ. I think the reason they want to use the airspace is pretty clear. It's not like they have 2 guys running that ship. There are many people on that craft that need air time. Wherever that carrier is, they will need airspace for the pilots to run training missions. It's common sense.

I can understand being uneasy, but I don't think I would be fiddling around with whether or not I like foreign planes in my territory if my country had needs like they do over there right now. Tough times for all involved. My heart goes out to them.

[Slice]

They basically are so crippled right now that they feel very vulnerable. Let's face it most of the World doesn't trust us anymore.... Do you really blame them?

[FUS1ON]

Just for the record, that link no longer takes you to the story I was talking about. CBS changed it, I hate it when they do that.

Here is the story I was talking about:


Relief Troops Treading Lightly

(CBS/AP) U.S. Marines have scaled back their planned tsunami aid efforts after reaching a compromise with the Indonesian government and agreeing not to carry weapons or set up a base camp on Indonesian soil, an American spokesman said Wednesday.

The aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, which is leading the U.S. military's relief effort, steamed out of Indonesian waters Wednesday because the country declined to let the ship's fighter pilots use its airspace for training missions. Helicopters will still deliver aid to Sumatra's devastated coast, however.

Indonesian Vice President Jusuf Kalla said foreign troops would be out of the country by the end of March.

"A three-month period is enough, even the sooner the better," Kalla said.

The moves underscore sensitivities in nationalistic Indonesia at having foreign military forces operating there, even in a humanitarian operation. They also come amid warnings from the Indonesian military that areas of tsunami-battered Aceh province may not be safe for aid workers.

The government ordered aid workers and journalists to declare travel plans or face expulsion from Aceh as authorities moved to reassert control of the rebellion-wracked area.

Wary of Indonesia's sensitivities, Marines scaled back plans to send hundreds of troops ashore to build roads and clear rubble. Col. Tom Greenwood, commander of the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, said earlier this week they would instead keep only a "minimal footprint."

In a major compromise, the Marines agreed not to carry guns while on Indonesian soil and that the vast majority of troops would return to ships stationed off the coast after each day's operations. The bulk of the Marines' mission has become ferrying aid workers and transporting food from the amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard.

Under U.S. Navy rules, pilots of carrier-based warplanes cannot go longer than 14 days without flying or their skills are considered to have degraded too far. Since the Abraham Lincoln has been stationed off Sumatra since Jan. 1, the carrier moved out of Indonesian waters so its pilots could conduct their training flights in international airspace.

The number of Americans unaccounted for in the tsunami disaster has dropped to 474, reports CBS News Reporter Charles Wolfson. Eighteen are confirmed dead and 17 are presumed dead.

In Sri Lanka Wednesday, police announced the arrest of a 60-year-old man picked up after authorities received a tip that he might have been involved in the alleged sale of tsunami orphans.

The fate of the children - ages 12 and 13 - said to have been sold is not clear. The suspect has been released on bail.

Large numbers of children were orphaned by the tsunami and the United Nations and international aid groups have indicated their concern that child traffickers could take advantage of the disaster and try to sell orphans into forced labor or the sex trade.

Security concerns threaten to hamper efforts to deliver aid to Aceh province on the northern tip of Sumatra island, where more than 100,000 people were killed and tens of thousands left homeless or in need. The United Nations has been running the relief effort, appealing to donors attending a conference in Geneva to honor the unprecedented $4 billion in pledges to help victims.

Separatists in the Aceh region have been fighting for an independent state for decades. Indonesia's military chief offered the rebels a cease-fire Tuesday, matching a unilateral one already declared by the insurgents.

The military has nevertheless warned that rebels could rob aid convoys and use refugee camps as hideouts but has yet to offer evidence to back its claims.

Asked if those who failed to register with the government before traveling outside the provincial capital, Banda Aceh, would be expelled, Welfare Minister Alwi Shihab said: "I think that is one possibility."

Australian Prime Minister John Howard described Indonesia's demand as "a good idea."

"It is very, very important that in the process of giving full effect to this magnificent international response, that we recognize the difficulties in Aceh, but that we don't overreact to them and we don't dramatize them," he said.

But Australian National University defense expert Clive Williams said the Indonesians wanted to keep close tabs on foreigners to conceal military corruption and not protect them from rebels.

"The big problem with dealing with (the military) in Aceh is that they're involved in a lot of corruption there and the reason I think they don't want people to go to some areas is because they're involved in human rights abuses in those areas," Williams said.

Before the tsunami, foreigners were banned from the area, and Wednesday's demand highlighted the unease with which Indonesia has faced the aid operation, replete with civilian aid workers and foreign soldiers.

U.N. agencies said they did not expect Jakarta's order to affect their operations because their security officers already work in close contact with Indonesia's military.

"It could change the situation of (non-governmental organizations) who are moving around like private persons," said Mals Nyberg, a spokesman for the U.N. High Commission for Refugees. "I guess that's what soldiers want to control — that people are moving in conflict areas just like tourists."

Nyberg said Indonesian bureaucracy had eased in recent days, allowing the organization to get permission faster to run helicopter flights to outlying regions.

Getting help to the neediest is already a logistical nightmare, with roads washed away or blocked by downed trees.

Kevin Kennedy, a senior official in the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, was upbeat on the progress. In Sri Lanka, "the overall relief effort ... has really gone over the hump," Kennedy told reporters Tuesday in New York. "They think they have a good grip on things. ... The food assistance, if that can be used as a barometer ... has been delivered to all the affected people in Sri Lanka."

But he said some villages along the hard-hit west coast of Sumatra had yet to be reached. He said the U.N.'s World Food Program was already delivering food assistance to 300,000 people on the island.

[ME BIGGD01]

They basically are so crippled right now that they feel very vulnerable. Let's face it most of the World doesn't trust us anymore.... Do you really blame them?
slice, i am not posting here to fight with you but thought i would just comment on your question. first i am not sure what you mean by do you really blame them so i will ask if you could explain before i jump to conclusions to what it means.


shogun---it does amaze me how america is judged and treated after all we do. i made a post regarding comments made toward america on our contributions to this disaster. it seems easy to put america down in all aspects regardless what we do for the world. it does seem that we are fools for helping anyone in the world but things never change. the thing is that america is the best country and contributes the most out of all the world. what we spend on foreign aid could pay off our deficit. eventually we may have someone in charge one day that will consider fixing america before helping other nations who will never respect us. when the foreign aid stops, the attitude toward america and americans will still be the same except the reality of the truth may hit them on how great our nation is. right now we have alot of disasters going on in america. i suggest people donating to american families BEFORE they donate to non american families. besides, if anyone asks if you donated to indonesia, say yes, billions:thumbs: . no matter what america does, we americans will not get the respect so consider that before helping non americans. there are too many american families that need help and will appreciate it more.

[MR. SLiK]

when youre the only superpower left, people expect more, thats just how it goes.

[Slice]

[QUOTE=ME BIGGD01]slice, i am not posting here to fight with you but thought i would just comment on your question. first i am not sure what you mean by do you really blame them so i will ask if you could explain before i jump to conclusions to what it means.
[QUOTE]

What I mean is there is mass hysteria going on and if I were standing there on a pile of rubble with dead bodies scatterd about, fighter jets flying over my head would not be adding to my comfort. The media has blown this way out proportion. I remember after hurricane Georges when we got back to our houses there were helicopters, fighter jets, and other privately owned aircraft flying around up and down the costline. The worst part about it was all the gawking. Everyone wanting to see how badly your property was damaged and all you want to do is get on with your life and start to clean up and rebuild.

[FUS1ON]

"The big problem with dealing with (the military) in Aceh is that they're involved in a lot of corruption there and the reason I think they don't want people to go to some areas is because they're involved in human rights abuses in those areas," Williams said.

That is something that really bothered me. It's not like we or anyone other country that is over there to help are trying to invade or anything and them making relief efforts even harder makes me think they have something to hide like human rights abuses.

On one hand I want to feel compasionate for these people in their time of need, but on the other hand, I sure as hell don't want to find out later that the money didn't go to help "the people", instead it went to repair corrupt officials or politicians homes or whatever.

Anyways, I hope things get worked out over there even though I feel that the money could have been put to better uses here on US soil. ;)

[ME BIGGD01]

when youre the only superpower left, people expect more, thats just how it goes.
this is true slik but when has america not been the one to give or been the one to give the most? the comments made were insulting and for those comments to be made it is just wrong. our first announcement on help was still more then the european union offered which is like 10 notions that offered like 4 million to our first 15 million. if nations expect from us why shouldnt we expect back or atleast get respect for being what we are?

[ME BIGGD01]

[QUOTE=ME BIGGD01]slice, i am not posting here to fight with you but thought i would just comment on your question. first i am not sure what you mean by do you really blame them so i will ask if you could explain before i jump to conclusions to what it means.
[QUOTE]

What I mean is there is mass hysteria going on and if I were standing there on a pile of rubble with dead bodies scatterd about, fighter jets flying over my head would not be adding to my comfort. The media has blown this way out proportion. I remember after hurricane Georges when we got back to our houses there were helicopters, fighter jets, and other privately owned aircraft flying around up and down the costline. The worst part about it was all the gawking. Everyone wanting to see how badly your property was damaged and all you want to do is get on with your life and start to clean up and rebuild.
well i can understand that but they still want all military out of there regardless of the practice flights. as far as the media goes, i am just about fed up with them as they seem to promote problems more then just report news, total bias broadcasting is all i see regardless of which side the are on. thats totally disgusting. as far as people wanting to see i feel its only natural. just like driving and seeing a car accident--you always have to look to see what happend. it's probably good though if people are seeing how bad things are so they can be aware of the problems. if people don't see the problem, they probably wont take it seriously.

[ME BIGGD01]

That is something that really bothered me. It's not like we or anyone other country that is over there to help are trying to invade or anything and them making relief efforts even harder makes me think they have something to hide like human rights abuses.

On one hand I want to feel compasionate for these people in their time of need, but on the other hand, I sure as hell don't want to find out later that the money didn't go to help "the people", instead it went to repair corrupt officials or politicians homes or whatever.

Anyways, I hope things get worked out over there even though I feel that the money could have been put to better uses here on US soil. ;)

shogun, do you know most of the foreign aid that america gives never reaches the people of those nations? we all feel for those people but usually the governments they live under dont give a rats ass about them. i honestly feel bad for those people but to be honest, if they turn us away we should take all that we brought with us. if they really want/need help then they have that option.

[Mr Clean]

It is nice to see that our government is at least sensitive enough to understand the concern that the Indonesian government had to not push the issue. The reason we wanted to fly over land is two fold of course, 1) it is easier for a pilot to navigate over land because of the landmarks (even though they are in contact with the carrier, it is still better than the open expanse of the ocean) and 2) in case any of our Marines DID come under fire from rebels or even a terrorist attack we would have planes that much closer to help. All military pilots HAVE to fly a minimum number of hours every week (so do commercial pilots by the way), that wasn't BS.

I understand Indonesia's paranoia somewhat, but the idea of the Marines being onshore without weapons is a little unnerving. I hope nothing happens to those guys and gals.

The other side to this story is typical for most parts of the world, they are also trying to hide the corruption and human rights violations that goes on all the time in their country. I am damn lucky to live in a country that values freedoms and rights....

[Slice]

The other side to this story is typical for most parts of the world, they are also trying to hide the corruption and human rights violations that goes on all the time in their country. I am damn lucky to live in a country that values freedoms and rights....
Yeah we just have better methods and names for hiding them. *cough* FDA *cough*