Prisoners at Abu Ghraib

[ME BIGGD01]

I wonder what some of you think about all the media hype regarding this. I for one feel that the pictures may not be telling all the truth. I can not understand why our American and others media feels that this is worst then what these people do to their captives. I know I have watched some of the gruesome beheadings of these groups and it is far worst then anything that has been done. Ok so if everything said is to be true, the soldiers are being held accountable but.... Why is this a bigger story or why is presented to be much worst then the muslims actions in its full entire. It seems to me that it does nothing but make the ignorant believe there is a cause to hate the West. I also don't understand why no Muslim nation has stood up to what these radicals are doing. It only makes me believe this is what they all support. I still think my war plan would have solved this in a week. I can not see the current plan working with these kind of people. Let the Palestines be an example what we are dealing with, with their current actions.

[Sirc]

The press, in their ferver to get a sensational story and grab a bigger audience, has consistantly hampered our efforts over there by sensationalizing this kind of crap. I don't know why the press is even allowed in our military installations during wartime. And who the hell is taking all these pictures? Our own soldiers? WTF? Why are we allowing our own security forces to be wandering around with cameras and camcorders in these prisons?

Personally, considering the constant and extreme stress our troops live with everyday having to deal with these animals, I can't really blame them for beating the f**k out of some of the captured insurgents and would-be suicide bombers. And meh, if a few die from being beaten, who cares? That'll get them to Allah and their 13-virgin bonus prize just the same as if they would have managed to blow themselves up and take out some of our troops. Sounds to me like we're providing a service where everyone benifits. :thumbs:

[ME BIGGD01]

Well the fact is we have soldiers being kicked out of the service they joined to fight for this country and thrown into prison. What I want to know is how people can explain what is really happening from a picture.

I can show you of a picture of my head bleeding badly and it looks like on a picture that I got messed up. The truth is no one know I have used the same razor to shave for a year.

No matter what, if people want to judge our soldiers or our country for this, they need to do a search on some of their actions which I watched and see how they feel after viewing it. I will say that being ass raped from 20 marines would be nothing compared to having your head cut off with a steak knife. It is real and can be found all over the web but people rely on the news media as 411. The Muslims are quick to be a critic to us but feel it is ok with their tactics which every American should just spit at them. This is not just war we are talking about but a true belief and religion that is bred into the Muslims to hate us and Jews. If it is not, then why is there not one Muslim country trully standing up and denouncing these radical actions. These riots are a perfect example that should finally say we can not help these people or change them. There plan is for us to go broke and we are with this war in Iraq. That war is over and we won. We do not need to do anything else there.

[FUS1ON]

Something that ticks me off is Gore takes his butt to Middle East to run his piehole about the unfair treatment that some of the captives recieved early on in this ordeal, thus adding more fuel to the fire over there and undermining efforts to win over support in that region.

[ME BIGGD01]

That is my point exactly. There is a fine line to be against the war in Iraq but these people such as Gore and K who said our troops will go and invade there homes and terrorize their people was nothing less then treason if you ask me. I can understand the Democrats wanting to get back into the WhiteHouse but they really do not understand what they are doing. It actually sickens me as they give the terrorist what they want and feeds them on their agenda.

Now you have Hillary Clinton and other Democrats making a big deal about Cheney's hunting accident. regardless of the situation, it has nothing to do with America. It's not like the same situation when Kennedy left the guy die in his car and went home to return to the scene the following day. I mean what the hell is this country coming to. Regardless of opinions of VP or President, we need to look at our priorities here.

Same goes with the spying. It was ok when Clinton did it but not ok for Bush to do it. I personally do not like it and think the Laws should be based of the Constitution but this Government should be able to listen to any NON US CITIZEN!!!

I would almost feel as if these few Democrats make their party look bad and will prevent them from regaining anything. I wonder how Hillary Cliton has the time to do nothing but Bash anything the current administration when she is dso busy doing nothing for NY. It only goes to show that the Government in its entire is a waste and too big, full of useless people on both sides.

At this point, I want our soldiers home because they are not doing anything usefull for our country in Iraq. You want to fight terror, you have to hit them all not one out of 10. Bring our men and women home and aim the missles at their targets. I think at this point since we are not stopping the countires from sending it militants, we are not doing anything that is effective. And I am sure that if anyone of us was there seeing what these soldiers are seeing, you would be looking to pounce on anyone of the captives. I would blame the mental state rather then the personality of anyone of our troops.

[Sirc]

I still think my war plan would have solved this in a week.

What was your plan?


I can show you of a picture of my head bleeding badly and it looks like on a picture that I got messed up. The truth is no one know I have used the same razor to shave for a year.

Doh! So that's what the problem is. *Makes note to self to buy a new razor* :P


The biggest problem with the Muslim nations not policing themselves is fear. The violent radical fundamentalist groups are actually a very small percentage of the Muslim population. The average Muslim Joe is just some poor guy trying to run his shop and feed his family. Killing infidels is simply not on his daily todo list. Or even on his mind. He wants peace and happiness and security for his family. And while he may wish the terrorism would stop, he would never dare express that opinion. Doing so would very likely lead to his death, and the deaths of his family members and close relatives.

We're dealing with a group of totally insane people who are armed and are eager to die so they can take their place in heaven. I doubt that half of the poor young men who carry out the suicide bombings even hate westerners. Killing us is simply a means to an end. The don't see, or even care that what they are doing isn't accomplishing anything but causing misery for others. They don't care that they are killing their own innocent women and children in these random bombings. They are simply mules following the carrot in the string.

At first the US military was targeted. Seeing that no real damage could be done there (yes they could kill a few of our troops at a time if they got lucky, but as a military presence, they weren't even making a scratch), they turned to targeting Muslims who were joining the new Iraqi army and police forces. Well, that wasn't having too much of an impact either. So now the trend it to simply detonate bombs in heavily populated public areas. And then do it again at the funerals for those that died in the first bombing. The desperation grows and the attacks are more random. I suppose the thinking is that somehow having Muslims die at the hands of Muslims will somehow incite more hatred for the western world. I guess. The insanity grows.

How do you fight people like this? These people are everywhere, worldwide. And they blend in with the peaceful Muslim communities, invisible. When they do reveal themselves it's usually too late.

Taking away our freedoms in the name of national security is not the answer. Attacking and occupying Muslim countries is not the answer. Nuking entire countries is not the answer. What is the answer? Dang if I know. The long term answer is creating a self-sufficient nation that doesn't depend on these backwards-arsed dark-age countries for our fuel supplies. That way we can stay the heck out of places we shouldn't be. The short term solution isn't clear. We've walked neck deep into a cesspool, and there's no clear path out that won't end up with us getting in over our heads.

I don't think that pulling our troops out of the middle east is an option right now. If we did that Syria would seize Iraq, and Iran would seize Afghanistan and probably team with Syria to take Iraq too.

Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. :(

[ME BIGGD01]

Ok so here is my plan as I see this war from the beginning.

First the smart plan on behalf of these people were to letus move in quick which we did. Their plan was to pick off a few at a time. Let the war last. Each day costs american tax payers billions. In the first gulf war, we had the right Idea. Bush Sr was smart. Bomb the crap out of them. As I see it and I agree that the poor joe smoe guy just tries to live but the reality is that the terrorists are being supported by the Governments. We know the countries that do this and some we consider allies for what ever reason. That's fine lets consider everyone an ally.

So first the countries that were suppose to be allies did not support us. These allies part of the UN were scamming with the enemy "Oil for Food". Russia, germany, France, Etc. Fine we went in anyway but because of the non support of the allies they have only shown that there was no support against terror. That is fine and I consider us better off. Most people think we went in to Iraq for oil or weapons of mass destruction which is not all true. Look at the prices at your pump and see if we are getting oil for free. I am sure there is some shady crap going on but that figures with todays government and like we had a better choice for president. the fact is Desert storm was never called over. Iraq signed UN agreements in order for us to stop sanctions and bombing the hell out of them. The UN did nothing to push this in effect which makes the UN useless as they are all scandals. Because Iraq did not follow rules, we were already justified to go back to war with Iraq and did not need UN approval. The basic fact that weapons of mass destruction were not found does not mean that there is none or was none. I am sure they know more then we do. Regardless, we were justified but the planning should have been done much better.

My plan would have been as followed.

As soon as on September 12, 2001 came, as president, the following speech would have been made clear.
Those responsible will pay. Those who supported those responsible will also pay. Those who do nothing about these people in their country will eventually pay.

Leave the UN for no support. there really is no reason for us to be part of this thing. It is crooked and a waste of American tax dollars. We Americans pay more for everything yet disliked by most nations. The proof is the past and the present in our war with Iraq and terror. We need to leave the UN and remove spys from America at once.

Next Day

I would not have sent 1 soldier to look for Bin Laden. He is only one of the many that needs to be killed.
September 13, 2001
3am in the morning in Aphganistan
Airforce mission "Operation Bleach"
3 stealth Bombers fly at high altitude and drop 3 Atomic Bombs across Aphganistan destroying everything and everyone. Nation is completely wiped out with just a few survivors that will eventually die from the fall out.

1 hour prior to this, all ally nations will be warned this was going to be done and be prepared.

Nuclear Missles are ready to be deployed agaist China and Russia incase they feel they need to react against us. They will be warned not to do so and stay out of it. They will be assured they are not going to be attacked unless they attack.

Muslim nations will be shocked of what America has done but realize they were all supporters of this as they burn our flags and scream to Allah. They are enraged and some still willing to die. They want revenge but most fear they are next. They burn down all the Mcdonalds in the area thinking it hurts us. They will consider what we America has done and America will be ready to do it again in a second.

All nations are disgusted by the American bombings and call us war mongers and murderers (like they do now). Every nation is on high alert.

President makes speech
Today was a reminder to the rest of the world. We will not accept terror and we will not accept nations that harbor it. We are justified as a nation to protect itself and warn those that decide to continue to threaten us or our allies. This would be a grave mistake and want to make it clear that America does not see this war on terror over until we see peace in all parts of the world that teach hate. Terrorism and murder to American people or Allies to America will never be tolerated again. Not today, tomorrow not ever again. Doing so will put every life in your country in Extreme danger. I will suggest all nations Governments who harbor or support terrorism to clearly think of the consequences if any attack is to occur again. We will not present a warning on our attack.

As nations are concerned of WW3 they watch as America decides to stand for what it has always stood for. Peace no matter what!!! We are a wake and ready to kick ass regardless of the riots of the Liberal groups protesting. Not so many considering our nation was attacked 2 days ago but still some who believe we are the starters of this war. No toleration for terrorism is the word around the world.

Spy Planes and spies watch and listen to any planning of an attack and if intercepted, that nation is attacked with a major blow that it renders the country useless. All secret weapons of America are ready for go. We attack as soon as a threat has been caught. Any Nation willing to cause terror will pay the ultimate price. A clear message will be told.

September 14, 2001
Iraq is attacked 11am broad daylight with heavy Bombs. Nation is ordered to surrendor or die. Saddam and his administration must follow through or face serious Bombings. They don't and Move weapons to Syria. Syria must decide to either turn down the weapons or hand them over due to what is happening to Iraq. The choice would be theirs and we are ready to eliminate Syria on side of Iraq.

Most Muslim Nations look to elimanate Isreal. Isreal is given word that they have the apporval to defend their nation. Isreal elimates Palestine. Suicide Bombings are a act of terror against an American Ally. Terrorism is not to be accepted.

China looks to invade Taiwan. We cut off trading with China if they do that and warn China of more serious consequences. The choice is theirs

September 15, 2001
Iran/North Korea is watched very closely and warned. One false move and the stealths are in the air for Attack. The choice is everyone of the Muslim nations who already hate America but now fear us. Allah will not save them. North Korea will not be tolerated with their threats no longer.

September 16, 2001
President Speech World Wide along with pamphlets being dropped on all threats to America.

America is a peacefull nation. America is a free nation. What has happend this past week was due to years of attacks on American embasy's and American Military such as the US COLE that killed american soldiers and civilians. 9/11 was the last straw as over 3000 innocent people were murdered. Mothers, Fathers, and children of America along with citizens of other countries that are allies to America. We suggest all people look at their Government and see what they have done to cause America to Strike back. We encourage all nations to look for peace with a Govenment that is for their people. We Americans do not like war but will bring it if requested again. If you allow your Government to put your life in a state if misery and do nothing about it, we America will have no choice to everything in our power to make sure we are safe and protected. The choice is up to all citizens to support what is right. Your religion does not teach to murder but you all ignore those that preach it. You allow the hate to be raised in your children. With an open mind, do you feel this is accurate and to be true? Is hatred what you all wish to dwell on. What has it brought to your people or religion? Does your god prevent progress? I think not and encourage all Muslims to take back their religion because America will not accept chance of terror no longer.

[ME BIGGD01]

The above post is just what I would of done. Some of you are going to say I am nuts and I expect that but hear me out and look at my logic before being critical. We did this to Japan and they are one of our greatest Allies now. Look how fast they complied. They were just as mean as the Nazi's. They attacked us also. Now look at Japan. It's a great country full of peace.


I guess my point is not to be allowed to be picked and pecked while they grow larger and sooner or later get a nuclear device that kills millions. I would rather get the fight over with rather thinking we can change these people. If they do not want to change or fear of changing, we should not have to be at risk of a terror attack. Why should we not be willing to die to make the future better rather making the future more dangerous. Talking with these people does not work as we shoul dhave learned with Iraq and North Korea and now Iran. I would love to be at a liberal rallie screaming peace but the reality is there is evil in this world and it does not just go away. History should show it has to be defeated. For those Nations that insult us or say we just want to take over the world should really think about that statement. If America was that kind of country, we could have done it already several times. I think that some nations may have forgot that it was their ass we saved in the past not to take over the world but to spread freedom and peace. The evil did not just walk away. We defeated it. It also could be that those nations just hate us bringing it up but the truth is it is only brought up when we are insulted and treated with no respect regardless of the past and Americans that died for them also.

The fact is anyone who says they hate America is saying they hate a part of themself because we as a nation have every race, religion, sexuality, nationality from all countries in the world including those who are considered enemies.

I hope not to offend anyone with my thoughts as this is how I feel about all of it.

[MR. SLiK]

Abu Ghraib, hasn't it been like a year since any real attention has been paid to it? Anyway the pictures and eye witness accounts have shown these people were guilty and they were punished, seems reasonable to me. It was a huge report because it goes against the Geneva convention rules that the United States always re-iterates that it follows. This treatment was unjustified, obviously some people and soldiers there would like to probably kill all of them, but they must practice some kind of restraint, much like police must do when apprehending criminals (who can do some pretty messed up ****). The people in camps will probably be tried somewhere and if it is deemed by a court (or what not) that they receive a penalty of death, than so be it.

The be-headings were probably gruesome, but these are crazy ass extremists will warp facts and meanings and use propoganda to rile people up from the start. When they are captured (if they aren't killed first) they will be punished, most likely by the death penalty. Using the same tactics they do is an incorrect approach. Yet they are a hard enemy to fight because of guerilla tactics, surprise bombings, and what seems like an endless supply of recruits.

Even though it's a movie, Syriana had some interesting parts in it that were probably true. There was a segment in it about a Pakistani father and his son who went out of work because of an oil company about to make a merger with another. This was a problem because they were trying to raise enough money to bring their mother from Pakistan to come live with them. During the time they were unemployed, they were eventually recruited by a charismatic cleric who said all kinds of nice things to convince them to join a religious school. Throughout this camp the cleric tells them all kinds of things and that if they do them they will be rewarded by God. He was brainwashing them and doing it in a tone that did not come off as hostile to the father and son. He was basically painting it as the right thing to do. They were "schooled" and eventually at the end (gonna spoiler it for people that really care):
They launch a suicide attack on an American tanker that was part of the oil merger using one of the missile launchers stolen from the very beginning of the movie. They did this in the name of their mother, not in the name of God or anything else. They didn't know any better and were taken advantage of and brainwashed. I believe this is how a lot of the radicals come about. Taking illerate/uneducated people and taint things to make them become angry for no reason.

Also about the muslim countries, some (there are obvious exceptions) are denouncing ALL of the terrorist attacks. Even some are doing what they can to help (Pakistan apparently has been a bigger helper with raids and apprehending top leaders in al Qaida). Don't let fanatics who dominate headlines to make you think all muslims or whatever are like this because they are not. And mass bombings won't work either, you'll just end up killing the innocents which is never wanted. You see it now, thousands of militants have been killed (by themselves and coalition forces) but yet they still keep on coming and coming. Stopping them is almost an insurmountable force. You can kill a lot and the next day the same number of them will be replaced.

The fanatics also take advantage of situations that might be going on in a country. Take for example Hamas getting majority in the government. There is a reason for it. Hamas, apparently, is very generous to the palestinian communities buildings schools and other such buildings and providing money to the poor. This gains them favor with the locals. Also the people had been tired of the corrupt Fatah party and they wanted change. This happened all the time, people might elect someone who is authoratative or fanatic or what not in nature to achieve stability.

About the "religion hating US and jews", it's just simply not true. Take for example the recent cartoon riots. During some of them, out of no where, are death threats to Israel and the US. I believe that the fanatics have again taken advantage of the situation. I think it compares well to when in US history when workers were beginning to form Unions and would stage protests, they were peaceful. Yet in some protests, anarchists, who took advantage of the situation, became to initiate violence on people and property. When people saw this in the media, they blamed that the Unions were to be blamed. This soured Americans on the idea of workers Unions for quite some time. Also, read up on some of these militant organizations, you'll be amazed in that a lot of their agendas are actually very different from one another except in one category in which they were actually formed in the first place: Destory Israel. They just use Islam as an excuse to carry out attacks. The only reason these militant groups even formed was because after WWII Britain obviously gave the land that was already part of Palestine to the jews to set up their own country. Now the wars in between then and now surely did not help things (israel taking more land didn't help either), but that's the reason. It is not Islam or the Koran saying this, it is being distorted.

[Sirc]

Abu Ghraib, hasn't it been like a year since any real attention has been paid to it? Anyway the pictures and eye witness accounts have shown these people were guilty and they were punished, seems reasonable to me.

I think that was one of the points both Bigg and I were making. New pictures of an old event were published by the media. The media thrives on discontent and chaos because it increases their ratings. Train wrecks are terrible, but people can't help but watch in fascination and horror. It's a sick form of entertainment, but people will watch and react strongly to it, and keep watching, and the media is very well aware of this.

The media has no business being embedded in US military operations. Can you imagine what would have happened if American viewers got to watch WWII as it was happening? As the allies stormed Normandy beach? That was pure carnage the likes of which have never seen before or since. The media is not "free speech". They do not report news objectively. It's big business, and sensationalism sells commercial spots. That is what drives large media conglomerates. We are getting only the information that the media chooses to show us, and in whatever way they wish to present it. And the public is gullible enough to just sit and accept whatever they see on the news as undeniable and objective facts.

I think the priorities in an attack should be: 1) Keep the American media the hell away. 2) Establish air superiority 3) Take out any local foriegn media sources 4) Complete the objective.

The negative propaganda from both the foriegn and American media is getting our troops killed.

[ME BIGGD01]

Slik, I read what you posted and Would like to believe all of that and it probably is true but it is hard for most people to see this and it does not seem to made clear enough to America that most denounce terrorism. I honetsly feel that it is not being taking care of by the countries governments which puts us at risk. I look at the riots and although it may be 1000 people at a givin time, I find it hard to believe the Government can not stop it. I know I have not seen one hign rank muslim make any attempt to do anything to stop terrorism. I see Pakistan help a little and the President there is taking big risks for helping America but the people look to hide these people and support it. It's either the people or the governments that can not be trusted. How can anyone take a chance with the determination of the enemies. Why can't the Muslim nations get together and put an end to what is going on? There has to be some responsibility put on the people also. For example, Palestine. They voted for Hammas. They vow to continue to attack Isreal. They have continued shooting missles into Isreal killing people and children. How much is any country suppose to take before they finally fight back. Not only has Palestine gone against the peace they promised on but they have a new stock pile of Missles that were dubbed from russia (cant remember the name). I mean when does this end? It has been going on for years and years and continues to get worst and worst. How long does a country wait before they end the war. I wont say you are wrong about some Muslims denouncing terrorism but I will say I have not heard it and would suggest they make it more clearer and step the process up until every American sees it on the TV. I would also like to see them actuall use acytions rather then words to put an end to it. I just can not except taking a chance on any country that has allowed it or allows it to grow in their country.

I do not base my opinion on any American news source either. I got to many around the world including some that are Anti-American to get their views.

[Sirc]

As far as BIGG's plan....

I don't think it would have happened as you have imagined it. I'm not going to go into great detail because there is too much to discuss. But any nation that uses even a tactical nuke (meaning a small one as would be carried by a cruise missle) to take out a major city would be immediately condemned by the rest of the world. There are quite a few other nuclear powers in the world, and the only one that may stay an ally, or at least not participate in the consequences that would follow our use of nukes would be Isreal. The rest of the world would rally together against us, and would threaten to remove the US's ability to use nuclear force (not that they could with our subs wandering around, but they could still do a helluva lot of damage to the continental US).

We didn't know who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks that quickly.

We could not have struck anyone in the day or two following 9/11 that you mentioned unless we used ICBMs. Which are not exactly intruments of surgical strikes. We would have needed to establish fly-over rights, refueling zones, intermediate bases, etc. It took us a long time to organize this for our second invasion of Iraq.

Bigg, if we wouldhave implemented your plan I think that we would not have had any chance of intimidating Russia, China, or the EU with nuclear strikes. They would have been warning us to stand down immediately. And you can bet they all would have had their nukes aimed at us becuase we would have clearly become a loose cannon i their eyes.

The Mexicans would immediately stop illegally immigrating into the US because, well, you don't run head first into a bonfire. The Canadians would have lit up and sat in front of their TVs saying things like "Whoa, dude!", and "Don't bogart the Cheetos!" :P :D

Seriously though, I think any nation that used nukes pre-emptively would be in serious and immediate shiat with the rest of the world. At the very least, all imports would cease, diplimatic ties would be broken, economies would crash and burn, fuel supplies would be scarce or non-existant, people would panic, riots would break out everywhere. Pure chaos would ensue. We'd be our own worst enemy. Nukes = bad. In any situation.

[Sirc]

I see Pakistan help a little and the President there is taking big risks for helping America

I'll agree there. I'm surprised that dude is still alive. Talk about walking on the edge of a razor....:eek: