God vs Darwin

[MassacreAL]

yeh i know this topic is a bit hot around world, but i hope its fine here at GM. this is kinda continue of thread recently started by Caged, "Gov. Sapoenaing Search Engines". Bob sended me PM about why he is christian and stuff but i think this is better to discuss about it in public, so with his agree here is his PM: (my answer is following)

I didn't want to put this in the thread, since some were getting upset about it being jacked, but I did want to respond to you.

It's important to note that the battle that goes on in America over whether or not God should be taught in Church has little or nothing to do with which one is "crap". Most Americans consent that it's up to each individual to figure out what the right choice for them is. For myself, I am a Christian. I believe that Darwin's theories are wrong, and that's that. If someone else wants to believe that i'm backwards, I of course feel sorry for them, as my religeon implies that it's not a good choice for them, but it is their choice to make.

That said, Darwin's ideas are far from proven. There is evidence of monkey/chimp/ape DNA being similar to ours. It certainly could make you think that we evolved from apes, but one could also deduce that God made it LOOK like we evolved from apes to test our faith in Him. Understand? Neither theory is proven, and in my opinion, neither is provable.

Obviously faith is not provable - if it was, it wouldn't be faith.

The debate that rages is based on that: Darwinism is not taught as theory - it is taught as fact. They basically do this in school to American children:

MAN might have DESCENDED FROM APES. SO SAYS DARWIN.

They do not clearly teach it as a theory. All most want is equality. Either teach that Darwinism is a theory, as is Creationism (which is a religeon, but also by nature a theory), or get rid of both. You don't say that either is right. You simply explain and mention both theories, or don't mention either theory at all.

Does that help you understand at all? Feel free to respond with what you're thinking - you're an intelligent guy, so I don't mind debatin' with you for a while:D.


well, i dont believe in god becouse i think religion is made by human. people long time ago(about 50000years) saw some phenomenons, like thunderbolts and stars(or sun or moon), which they couldnt explain with their knowledges of nature. so they devised religion. they believed in ghosts, in spirits... and finally in god. they made theories about universe and all theories made by priests was completely wrong. they also thought god "whispered" these theories to them and god would punish humankind if people wont believe in these theories. scientists later proved these theories of earth like a center of universe are wrong. i really cant figure out why still someone believes in god, after this experience. there are many more things against religion and god.

ok, now to darwins theory. i believe its true becouse we have got very much support for darwins theory, and no support for god-as-world-creator theory. we generally have no support for religion, or have we? main proves of darwin theory is things from matter, i mean excavations. we can calculate how old are these excavations, so we can then make some system in evolution. we know 2 milions years ago there was apes. then we have many forms of ape-humans between 2milions years and 70000years old.
we are pretty sure how human has raised from ape.

maybe one little chance for god(very strange chance), is big bang. we have no clue what was before big bang(and btw, i dont believe to big bang, i think when i will be adult we will laugh about big bang like we are now laughing about theory "earth is carried by two elephants which are standing on back of giant turtle":D.)

[Pure_Evil]

If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? :hmmm:


no offense Sas

[Pure_Evil]

on another side, a long time ago, a man sees a burning bush and it talks to him... he's a prophet




today, a man sees a burning bush, and it talks to him, he's a nut case, gets committed and put on mind altering drugs...



you decide :eek:


yes, slow day at work for me :P

[BobtheCkroach]

My only argument would be the simple fact that a belief in a diety, the Christian God or otherwise, it based on faith. The concept that "you can't prove it" is part of the very essence of faith. If it's provable, you don't have to have faith.

So, finding evidence of the scientific variety of God is not actually part of believing in Him at all, per se. (DE, you better stop by - you can probably say this a lot better than I :P)

As for Darwinism, you're stating that there's proof, based on the age of excavations, etc. - if you prescribe to the theory of an all-powerful God, then you're acknowledging that he can do anything (duh :P) Hence, while I understand the statement that there's support for Darwin's theory, God could (and in my belief, did) make it all look that way. He can create fossils in teh ground that appear to be billions of years old - he knows better than us how that would work. He can make DNA in a monkey look almost exactly like DNA in a human.

I'm not stating that there isn't evidence to support Darwin's theory. I'm saying that faith in God is not based in facts.

So if you try to come to the conclusion about God's existence based on facts, you'll conclude he doesn't exist 10 times outta 10.

[MassacreAL]

If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? :hmmm:


no offense Sas
becouse some apes mutated, some apes not. biologist have found elephants wihtout ivory. one elephant has mutated and he was born without ivory and he didnt be killed by hunters. now elephants without ivory are getting spreaded. so loong time ago one ape mutated, survived, and got spreaded. --> humans. do you think there is very small chance to happen this? yes it is, it took several milions generations of apes.

[EXEcution]

maybe one little chance for god(very strange chance), is big bang. we have no clue what was before big bang(and btw, i dont believe to big bang, i think when i will be adult we will laugh about big bang like we are now laughing about theory "earth is carried by two elephants which are standing on back of giant turtle":D.)
Well the big bang is a theory on how the universe was created. And there is scientific proof for that theory (e.g. the universe is continually expanding). Perhaps we will never know how the universe came to be because something has to come from something (as opposed something coming from nothing). This ties in with creationalism. Man was essentially created from nothing. He was created from no living thing to put it into perspective. There was God and he created man as He saw fit. How? I don't know.

Darwin's theories of evolution require a bit more to take into account. Thing like how life started. Well after the big bang came galaxies which contained solar systems which consisted of a sun and planets. Earth started out as highly volcanic and "unstable" planet. As a result of thunderstorms a bolt of lighting stuck the water which contained organic compounds and life was created from non-living material. And humans evolved from that. Since no one has yet actually been able to re-create these evens on ANY SCALE it's a theory.

Science is not perfect, neither is religion. Perhaps both creationalism and evolution are false. The way we came to be is so complex that even humans cannot grasp the concept. But things like this don't keep me up at night. I think things like how civilization came to be are much more interesting.

[MassacreAL]

My only argument would be the simple fact that a belief in a diety, the Christian God or otherwise, it based on faith. The concept that "you can't prove it" is part of the very essence of faith. If it's provable, you don't have to have faith.

So, finding evidence of the scientific variety of God is not actually part of believing in Him at all, per se. (DE, you better stop by - you can probably say this a lot better than I :P)

As for Darwinism, you're stating that there's proof, based on the age of excavations, etc. - if you prescribe to the theory of an all-powerful God, then you're acknowledging that he can do anything (duh :P) Hence, while I understand the statement that there's support for Darwin's theory, God could (and in my belief, did) make it all look that way. He can create fossils in teh ground that appear to be billions of years old - he knows better than us how that would work. He can make DNA in a monkey look almost exactly like DNA in a human.

I'm not stating that there isn't evidence to support Darwin's theory. I'm saying that faith in God is not based in facts.

So if you try to come to the conclusion about God's existence based on facts, you'll conclude he doesn't exist 10 times outta 10.
so do you believe there is a god? if yes, you have many things to explain, if no, your faith is fake.

(if yes, my first question will be why he allows human to kill another human, and why can people like me who thinks that god is war criminal live happy.)

[Pure_Evil]

becouse some apes mutated, some apes not. biologist have found elephants wihtout ivory. one elephant has mutated and he was born without ivory and he didnt be killed by hunters. now elephants without ivory are getting spreaded. so loong time ago one ape mutated, survived, and got spreaded. --> humans. do you think there is very small chance to happen this? yes it is, it took several milions generations of apes. uhh yeah, but it's proven that inbreading between humans creates weaker, and most oftenly mentally deficiant humans, so by that theory, mankind woudl only get dumber, not smarter and stronger. So in no way is that evolving.

[BobtheCkroach]

so do you believe there is a god? if yes, you have many things to explain, if no, your faith is fake.

(if yes, my first question will be why he allows human to kill another human, and why can people like me who thinks that god is war criminal live happy.)

Yes, I do believe there is a God.

I'll attempt to answer your questions, but I always tend to answer stuff like this poorly, so hopefully DE or someone else will come and and help clarify if I end up sounding stupid :)

Life is a test. God puts us here to test whether or not we can have faith in him. If he simply stuck us into Heaven automatically, there would be no point in our existence - instead our faith is first tested.

In order for it to be a test, God has to let life go. If you're teacher gave you a test, but everytime you didn't know an answer, told you the answer, it wouldn't be much of a test - similarly, God does not give us the answers but rather lets us take the test on our own. Unfortunately, there are those who do not pass the test / pick the right answers.

We actually talked about this in Church this week. God uses bad experiences for a number of reasons. The single largest reason might be that fact that we grow through struggle. By putting us through tragedy, it gives us the opportunity to bolster our faith in him.

So, killing others? For the killer, they're *allowed* to kill b/c God allows us to make our own mistakes. For the victim, we may not know. Perhaps that person was about to come down with a horrible disease (which only God could know) and God decided to spare them? Or perhaps that victim was in fact about to commit a crime 1000x more heinous (terrorism, rape, etc) - who knows? I cannot tell you why God allows person A to live and person B to die. I can only tell you that he made my brain, which means that everything in there he knows, and then so much more - I can't begin to understand every choice he makes. As for the 3rd person in the scene - the family, friends, and others that know the victim - while the situation may suck and be hard to overcome, within the experience is the opportunity to grow somehow, if the person is willing.

As for why you can be happy despite being angry at God, I'm not quite sure I follow. God lets us live our lives as we choose. If you find your life fulfilling, then you'll enjoy it and be a happy person. You have your whole life to make your ultimate choice. It doesn't necessarily make sense that God would make your life a living Hell just for not believing in Him - if he make every non-believer's life awful, I think you'd find that almost everyone started believing, bc it'd be obvious that he was making your life bad for not believing in Him. It all comes back to God giving us the freedom to make our own choices, right or wrong.

[EXEcution]

(if yes, my first question will be why he allows human to kill another human, and why can people like me who thinks that god is war criminal live happy.)
Because people sin. Also because there is also a Devil who tempts humans to do sinful things. Maybe God just created man and left them to live their own way. He gave them the ability to make a choice whether to be good or evil.

[BobtheCkroach]

Because people sin. Also because there is also a Devil who tempts humans to do sinful things. Maybe God just created man and left them to live their own way. He gave them the ability to make a choice whether to be good or evil.

By no means do I believe that God simply created us and left, but all of those are good points that I didn't include.

[(Villains)****Death Sentence****]

i believe in God, and when i'll die i'll try to tell you the truth ;)

[Sauron]

uhh yeah, but it's proven that inbreading between humans creates weaker, and most oftenly mentally deficiant humans, so by that theory, mankind woudl only get dumber, not smarter and stronger. So in no way is that evolving.


Explain as to why would mankind become dumber and not stronger? There are several chances for a) mutations that make you stonger b) gene recombinations that make you stronger.
And as it is now theres enough genetic diversity given for it to not happen. But it might happen as alot of the "only the fittest survive" is taken out of the equation by medicine and other inventions man made or will make.

Best example tho that this kind of things happen are the royal families as they've been more or less inbreeding for generations now.

And well its inbreeding between humans of a family causes to become weaker and weaker.

So if you see the Bible and the story of how god "made" earth Humans would not be on earth anymore ;) since according to the bible it all started with a man and a woman and the woman even beein just a clone of the man ;)


Anyways thats the small input from Sauron


now back to lurking till the next post ;)

[JIMINATOR]

contrary to public opinion, darwin's theory does not state that man descended from apes. that is just some bogus crap being used to inflame groups about the theory.

darwins theory is really about the fact that man, and apes, and mammals, and everything that is alive, had common ancestors. At some point however things branched and different species were created. Man has continued evolving on his branch, ape on their own branch.

It may be a subtle point, but one you should keep in mind if you like to believe that at some point in the past the entire world was flooded for a couple of weeks, except for a boat that had a billion different species aboard it.

So... man was created to test their faith. I wonder why god's daddy created him? Maybe to test his fairness and creative abilities. Maybe he is screwing up in that regard, and god's daddy is going to put him in hell for all eternity as a punishment.

Being a parent, I don't really understand the harsh god that people like to worship. In theory, god created man in his own image. i think the reality is exactly the other way around.

As a parent, I would want my children to succeed, and try to give them the tools to succeed. And if they didn't, well, that is a punishment in itself. But there is no reason to put them in hell for eternity, like who would really want that? The best success I could possibly do would be to have them go out and exceed me. Not to to be worshipful and other bogus stupidity. To have children that live and experience a full life, a parent cannot ask for any more than that.

All this talk about hellfire and eternal damnnation? What is that about? Where did jesus preach it? I think that is just an early invention of the christians to strenghten their religion and punish those who would stray.

[Wiper]

Hehe, endless discussion...


If there is a God who r we to questioning if he excist yes or no :rolleyes:

And if excist, he will be allmighty, but can he make something he can't lift?

What if God appears to be the so called Devil, then the right thing to do is to be bad :D

Or maybe he created the evolution to fool us all.

Quote:
The question is just to good to be waste by an answer ;) (H. Mulish)

[Pure_Evil]

Being a parent, I don't really understand the harsh god that people like to worship. In theory, god created man in his own image. i think the reality is exactly the other way around.

As a parent, I would want my children to succeed, and try to give them the tools to succeed. And if they didn't, well, that is a punishment in itself. But there is no reason to put them in hell for eternity, like who would really want that? The best success I could possibly do would be to have them go out and exceed me. Not to to be worshipful and other bogus stupidity. To have children that live and experience a full life, a parent cannot ask for any more than that.


nicely said :thumbs:

[FUS1ON]

This is a great thread and it's still on topic too after 2 pages! :P

It's good to hear other people points of view on religion and their beliefs. I believe in God, but even at my age I still have questions. I pray, but not nearly often enough, I stopped going to Church because of laziness so I guess you could call me a bad Christian and I really should go more and maybe I wouldn't have so many questions.

Carry on, this is good stuff.

[MassacreAL]

i cant see more things to say, so result of this thread is this: everyone can believe in whathever he wants, nothing can be proved.

heh, one reason why i love math is this, everything can be proved and everything is logic, no quarrels :P

and good to hear that here at GM are clever people, i was a bit afraid of ban, before i started this thread, lol

[Pure_Evil]

I used to go to church, then I learned about the business end of it and lost interest, then my EX got divorce counselling from church, while we were still married.... and I bailed.

Tried again, and just didn't get that warm and welcomed feeling I used to get 14 years ago.:(

[Wiper]

The genious design...

If we know that God doesn't excist, many who believed would commit suicide.
If we now that he excists we would all act like goats and behave like saints (or not: depends on wich side u wanna make a career :D). Now how much fun would that be for the one who designed it all??

Since we don't know, people act like themself (at least a bit)

[Lady Doom]

I believe in myself...that's all...maybe this is not answer,but this is me:).

[Goober]

I used to go to church, then I learned about the business end of it and lost interest, then my EX got divorce counselling from church, while we were still married.... and I bailed.

Tried again, and just didn't get that warm and welcomed feeling I used to get 14 years ago.:(

Try a different church!

There will always be the argument of "is there a God?"
I can't for the life of me believe that all the beauty I am surrounded with here in the mountains of East Tennessee just "happened" because of some explosion 40 bazillion years ago.
I understand that some would wonder why God doesn't step in and fix things. This is where "faith" comes in....I think that as we have faith in Him, he also has faith in us to ultimately do the right thing.
I know that if each religion would practice their teachings the world would be a calmer place. Unfortunately some followers of each have the mentality that theirs is the one true religion and the rest are wrong and are going to Hell or whatever the divine punishment for non believers is.
I believe that God wants me to be happy, joyful and free and all he asks from me is to have faith and live by a few simple rules. I see nothing wrong with that.
Oh....Just so you'll know, I am a Christian

PS...this is a good topic, and I'm glad it's been a polite one!

[JIMINATOR]

I believe in myself...that's all...maybe this is not answer,but this is me:).
excellent answer, after all, that is the only thing we can truly be sure of, our own existance. everything else may just be a figment of our imagination, including me, or all of you.....

or maybe the concept of god is just a somthingness arising out of an infinitely vast nothingness, and over an infinite amount of non-existing time, the nothingness has learned to interact with itself, to create higher and higher forms of nothingness...

after all, matter is just composed of a little something in a whole bunch of nothingness. They keep smashing them up, and there is less and less there....

if god is only an awareness, and i am an awareness, then are we not really equal?

what is this concept of free will? do planets think they have free will as they orbit the sun? what about galaxies? what about electrons? is our free will just the interaction of an infinite amount of forces upon our atoms that triggers certain brain chemistry, and based on those interactions, we make our "choices?" Is this a mechanical universe?

If you are born into a religion that tells you that you are going to heaven, and another person is born into a religion that tells him the same, but oops, his religion is wrong, and it will be a trip to hell for him, well, where is the free will in that? Would you really say that you had free will, say to convert to islam, and actually do it? If not, then neither of you have real free will. The concept of an evil god states that one of you is going to hell, or at least most of the population....

[Caged Anger]

I find it an interesting situation...

Religion came before science, and now that science is catching up and progressing in its discoveries...religion is coming into conflict

The very easily deduced conclusion then is that Religion must have been created millenia ago to explain the unexplainable. Now that science is proving many religious beliefs false....conflicts will only increase as Religion is slowly undone. We are all entitled to our individual opinions, no matter what they may be...this is mine

[Pure_Evil]

Goober, I tried quite a few.

[SASQUATCH]

If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? :hmmm:


no offense Sas

LOL

[MassacreAL]

LOL
im wondering why he told it too :hmmm: are you biologist or archeologist or something?

[EXEcution]

im wondering why he told it too :hmmm: are you biologist or archeologist or something?
It's a joke. Sas is short for sasquatch, an imaginary ape creature and a very well remembered GM member.

[SASQUATCH]

Many have strong believes about God which I respect and as for ape like creature to man read and understand what it is trying to say about ape and man because many misunderstand what it means about evolving to man from ape. We evolve to man not from apes but we have similarities. As for the big bang theory like it said it’s a theory and as for religion and God it is faith that makes him exists. You can debate this all day and never get anywhere because many are not prepare to understand it. We are not even close to understanding many things but we are learning and we still live in the dark ages when it comes to science and even religion. What I mean is science we have not even touch the surface of it because so much to learn and to understand and as for God how can we ever understand what God is doing but only to have faith in believing him by following his teachings.

Religion and science actually have something in common and that is it will evolve just like everything else. Old testaments speak of punishments and testing it’s faith but the new testaments speak of forgiving etc. Science has evolved as well where we once believed that the world was flat. These things are just small examples of how things have change over the centuries and yet we are not even close to learning or understanding what it all means. If we should ever make it through this century it would be nice to see the changes that are install for the future generation and even that is still so far away to ever comprehending what God is doing and why and science understanding the universe how and why.

The point is that as long as we maintain communication between each other the better we will find answers or at least a small understanding. By working and respecting each other it will only make us closer to an answer but yet never to fully understand why.

[Sirc]

Personally, I believe religion is a crutch that some people need to help them through their lives. I know this isn't a very popular belief, but I honestly think this is the truth.

Early man didn't have time to deal with any of this. He was busy going out and trying not to get killed by whatever he was hunting. And at the end of the day, if he was lucky, he came home and slept (and reproduced, the lucky bastid).

As civilizati0on evolved, communities formed, and man learned to farm the land, and his/her life wasn't totally centered around immediate survival. And he/she actually had some free time to sit and think. All that climbing to the top of the food chain had some side effects. Not only was man able to develop weapons to make killing more efficient, and farming more efficient (you can't pwn mammoths without purple weapons), he found some time to ponder, and imagine, and innovate. And that's when the trouble began. He tried to reason why sometimes huge storms came and destroyed his crops, or why forest fires drove away the game he hunted. It must be something that had gotten angry. It was very much like what happened when he got angry; accept on a much grander scale. So there must be a much grander being! Yes! That was it! There was something that he was inferior to, and that determined how his life/luck would go, so that something must be appeased and worshiped.

And that my children is how religion began, and has been such a motivational force, and how it has caused more violent death than anything else, any war, any natural disaster, ever has. And still does. And always will as long as man feels the need to transfer the actuality of his existence onto some unseen, unknowable, and incomprehensible greater being.

Get over it people. Just because you've figured out that it's a good thing to wipe your arse after you shiat doesn’t mean you are blessed, have been created, and are being watched over by a greater being. It just means you've learned to wipe your arse. Congrats.

[Speedsweeper]

Try a different church!

There will always be the argument of "is there a God?"
I can't for the life of me believe that all the beauty I am surrounded with here in the mountains of East Tennessee just "happened" because of some explosion 40 bazillion years ago.
I understand that some would wonder why God doesn't step in and fix things. This is where "faith" comes in....I think that as we have faith in Him, he also has faith in us to ultimately do the right thing.
I know that if each religion would practice their teachings the world would be a calmer place. Unfortunately some followers of each have the mentality that theirs is the one true religion and the rest are wrong and are going to Hell or whatever the divine punishment for non believers is.
I believe that God wants me to be happy, joyful and free and all he asks from me is to have faith and live by a few simple rules. I see nothing wrong with that.
Oh....Just so you'll know, I am a Christian

PS...this is a good topic, and I'm glad it's been a polite one!

Well said Goober.

:thumbs:

[Stepping.Razor]

This is a good thread, but you are all overlooking the current issue, which is:
what should be taught in PUBLIC schools, specifically SCIENCE class.

As many of you have pointed out, individuals are free to believe whatever they want, even if it's stupid and/or patently untrue.

However, in the U.S. we have a principle called separation of church and state. Since public schools are funded and administrated by the state, the school's curriculum is subject to this principle. Therefore, no matter how much we believe, or how far we hold the majority, religious matters may not be included in any public school's curriculum. This is a good thing. God forbid you are in the minority someday.

So what is to be included in the public school curriculum? Well there is usually a state entity that makes recommendations and then local school boards usually go along. Hopefully, these state entities are made up of objective, well educated people, who apply generally accepted academic standards which are heavily influenced by current prevailing thought in the academic community. Namely, colleges, universities, and peer reviewed academic journals. For God's sake, these people devote their lives to trying to figure out the answers to these ACADEMIC questions.

Now, like or not, believe it or not, evolution is NOT considered a theory by these people. I am talking about professors, doctors, and scientists whose life's work is to study, evaluate, and decide these things. Based on academia's current position, most state's departments of education have decided to include evolution in the science curriculum. Most local school boards follow along with the state's recommendation. Last time I checked, the Kansas Dept. of education was trying to remove and/or clarify evolution in their curriculum recommendations.

Even if the subject matter is controversial, I want my children hearing the latest, most accurate views on all academic subjects. Do not be confused by a few biased opinions on the topic. Evolution is accepted as fact by the academic community.

Picking and choosing to teach only what we are comfortable with, or what fits our religous beliefs, is too dangerous to allow even once.

Science is for explaining physical phenomena. Religion is for trying to understand the spiritual. There is no conflict. I myself have no problem reconciling evolution and God. My God is not bound by earthly ideas - opinions, theories, or even facts. I try to teach this philosphy to my children.

[JIMINATOR]

I guess what it all comes down to is the concept of literal truth as compared to relative truth. A lot of the fundamentalists like to believe that the bible is the dictated word of god, every thing in it is absolute truth, and it is a self-referential proof of itself. To justify this, they will make claims that the earth is really only 6000 years old, dinosaur bones were "planted" in the earth, and so forth. I find it all to be ludicrous. Why not take the creation to be a parable, and not necessarily a literal truth? In the beginning there was nothing, and from there, everything else arose. Why the necessity to apply "days" and dictate exactly what happened? Why not just take the concepts and reinterpret them via science? That makes sense to me. I guess the ultimate fear of fundamentalists is that the bible be reinterpreted. This despite the fact that you have thousands of variations of christian worship, and the all disagree on the interpretation of various passages in the bible. This may come as a shock to some, but to be frank, god did not write the bible. call it inspired people, or whatever, but they could only write about the things they knew. if the same people had the benefit of today's knowledge, I am sure it would be radically different.

[Slice]

I believe in energy.

[Sirc]

I believe in energy.

Then ye best repent, because the day of reckoning is near! :eek:

[Nitro]

Alright, I'll keep this simple so you can understand.

You all can theorize and speculate until your heads hurt but there is one question which you or any 3rd dimensional entity cannot comprehend, and that is: Who created the Creator/universe(s)/space-time?

Something doesn't come out of nothing, but as I said, we cannot understand the concept of infinity and eternity.

The reason this and questions like it are impossible to answer is that we are 3 dimensional beings living within a fourth dimension, Time. Everything we have learned from the time we were born is associative. These associations are cause and effect based, and if you remove cause and effect then our logic breaks down. The creator, God, the energy whatever you want to call it is outside of our 4 dimensions and is free of cause and effect and as such does not require a first cause.

[Death Engineer]

Wow. I haven't spent much time on GM lately, but I felt that I needed to respond to this thread. First of all, let me state that if MassacreAL did not ask permission from BobtheCkroach before he posted his PM publicly, that is a pretty rotten thing to do. However, I'm glad the subject came up publicly.

Also, Bob...you don't need me to explain for you. You did a fine job explaining what you believe.

As for me, I have quite a few strong feelings about the big concepts that have been brought up here. Allow me address some of them briefly, and maybe suggest that we break this up into more than one thread so we don't try to cover the whole meaning life in one spot. ;)


The origin of the earth, solar system, etc.

I believe based on the Genesis record that our world as we know it was created in 7 literal days. Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." I could explain why I believe this, but I'd rather not derail this thread too much with this one issue. The quick version starts with my view of the Bible. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. With this in mind, realizing that the original text word for "day" is the same one used many more times in the old testament where it is clearly a literal day (~24 hours), and this is enough for me.

As such, I do not subscribe to the "Big Bang" theory (and neither do most serious scientists of today). Even if you assume the Big Bang is true, what came before the big bang? Something does not come out of nothing.


The authenticity (or lack) of the Bible

For me, this is the crux of most of this conversation. Without the Bible as a source of truth (and I don't mean relative), it is hard for me to carry a conversation much further. So let me start by saying that the Bible is not just internally consistent (which it is -- many authors over alot of time sharing the same basic message -- that God loves you). No, there is also external evidence that suggests that the Bible is both historically accurate and true. Ask most of the serious archeologists today. They continue to use the Bible as a guide for finding ancient ruins. And the more they find, the more I am convinced of what I stated above. For more info, please see the following site: http://www.carm.org/cut/bible.htm.


Why does God allow murder/sin/evil in the world?

For me, this answer is simple. Because love demands a choice. Similarly to what others have stated, if God demanded our love, we wouldn't be anything more than robots. Instead he gives us a free will to choose Him or not to. Will we suffer consequences if we do not choose Him? Sure. Maybe not in this life. God never claims that He will even the score completely here on earth. In eternity, our lifetime is but a blip. Sure there are short term effects of our decisions, be they good or bad (murder falls into this category). But the real justice will be served in the after life.

If God is who He says He is (both righteous and just), then this even makes logical sense. God cannot come into contact with sin. "His eyes are too pure to look upon evil," (Hab. 1:13) Picture your body's reaction to bacteria. It simply cannot coexist. So it is with God and sin. When we sin, we are separated from God. A single sin costs us an eternity of intimacy with our savior. Only the blood of Christ (who was also God -- thus perfect, righteous, just, etc) on the cross can bridge that divide. Whew...I said I'd keep this short. This is tough. ;) I'll provide another link that aligns very closely with my own beliefs: http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-4.htm#_1_31


Faith is for ninny's...

Well first, I would claim that everyone has faith. For example, the water you drank with your meal today or from a water fountain...how did you know it wasn't poisoned? Or the air you breath indoors...how do you know it is free from chemical agents that could kill you in a matter of minutes or hours? The only answer is faith. You simply take it on trust/faith that the water/air is clean and that it won't kill you.

Now if you agree with the above, the question is not one of whether you have faith (you do, trust me), but in what (or who) you have placed your faith. Based on the Bible, I place my faith in the God of Moses, Isaac, and Jacob. The God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The alpha and omega. The same God that is loving (merciful) and yet still just (righteous).


You can't prove that God exists

Much like the last section, I would argue that there are many things that you would have a hard time proving exist. Assuming no lab equipment, could you prove that germs exist? Bob had a good portion of this one right when he stated that you will not arrive at the truth without some form of faith (sorry if I completely paraphased you Bob). If He hit us with it like a big thump on the head and it was logical and required no faith, well, we're back to being robots again.


Religion is just a crutch...something thought up by the few to confuse the masses

According to dictionary.com, a crutch could be "A device used for assistance or support." Using that definition, I would agree. I would not be who I am today without a personal relationship with Jesus, who loves me though I am a sinner. As far as it being something that was just dreamed up, I would point back to the authenticity of the Bible. A Case for Christ is a great book about an author that set out to disprove the Bible by interviewing all of the top scholars (Christian and non-Christian) about the "tough" areas/questions. Strobel has some interesting conclusions. See the following link for sample pages: Link (http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0310234840&id=0CKrintnpbMC&pg=PT7&lpg=PT7&dq=a+case+for+christ&sig=Bb1MB9_Bd7Ux4X8b62T9ttMpwwc)


I would highly suggest we start some separate threads (if folks are interested). If nothing else, it will help to keep my thoughts a bit clearer.

[EXEcution]

First of all, let me state that if MassacreAL did not ask permission from BobtheCkroach before he posted his PM publicly, that is a pretty rotten thing to do. However, I'm glad the subject came up publicly.
Actually according to him he did.

From Mass' first post.

so with his agree here is his PM

Maybe it isn't written in proper English but it still gets the point across.

So maybe you haven't actually witnessed any miracles in your life. Maybe the birth of a child isn't that miraculous to people nowadays but at least you can relate.

Maybe God is just something that exists to keep us from killing ourselves too quickly. A mere force that came to be when human life began. Created for the sole purpose of maintaining order. Perhaps it's undetectible, maybe it's a subatomic particle that has not yet been discovered. And just like photons are particles of light "GODons" could be particles of that invisible force.

Just a theory.

[Goober]

A standing round of applause for Mr. Death Engineer, and thanks for the links.

[Seriously Deadly]

on another side, a long time ago, a man sees a burning bush and it talks to him... he's a prophet




today, a man sees a burning bush, and it talks to him, he's a nut case, gets committed and put on mind altering drugs...



you decide :eek:


yes, slow day at work for me :P

rofl pure.

ok. i know im young and all but i see it this way, this topic is basicly about how humans came to be, right? well i think that this shouldnt be taught in public schools. now in college or private schools they teach what they like since that is by choice.

to me stuff like this used to scare me. made me wonder. made me think, just flat out scared me. and im asuming im just like normal kids, and this stuff could also scare other kids at school. I dont really know how to get my point across, but you all tell im against it at school, but im trying to find a way to tell the rest.

and nitro, i never thought of it that way. you made me look at things like this in a whole new concept.

bottom line, i believe in a god. maybe not the same god, but theres no way logicaly to explain anything to me if there isnt some sort of god. but then i think "what about the ancient greeks" how did there gods come up? how come christianity wasnt around then?

then here is a scary thing to me of the christain religion.
what if Mary ploted everything. what if she lied, and made her son believe all this? well now i have scared myself.

i dont even know if i am making anysence but this is all just poping up to my head. i could right on for ever.

[BobtheCkroach]

First off, he totally had my consent. If he hadn't, there would have been something said like 6 pages back :P

DE, I knew I could say what I wanted to convey, and I did. You just have a knack for really saying stuff like this well (as demostrated :D)

Part of it was having you for a fix if I screwed up my wording or something - the other part was an attempt to further entice (sp, de?) you to post in the thread, b/c I enjoy your opinions on the subject :thumbs:

[Seriously Deadly]

i also think this.

if humans came from monkeys, then monkeys must also have religeon is what i think. but if monkey/ape have religion howcome we didnt adopt theres? srry proboly confusing ya'll

also, howcome humans are only species to have religion? i never seen animals go to chur..nvm that doesnt make sence. Animals seem not to even wonder (but idk since im not one of what ever animal they are)

[BobtheCkroach]

I just want to say, on a side note, that I'm probably tending to comment/applaud/etc those w/ a christian background similar to my own while sort of snubbing the rest of you :o I want to make it clear how much I appreciate everyone's approach to this thread, though, regardless of your beliefs & how they do or do not differ from mine:

I just want to say - thanks to everyone that has posted! This has been civilized, intelligent, engaging and just downright interesting. I can't ever remember a religeous/political thread that went this long and didn't have someone wanting to smack someone else (I'll be the first to say, guilty as charged).

Everyone has voiced their opinions in a way that a) has been respectful of what others believe and b) has been a respectable & serious post in and of itself. Congrats to everyone for making this worthwhile!

:thumbs::thumbs:

[BobtheCkroach]

i also think this.

if humans came from monkeys, then monkeys must also have religeon is what i think. but if monkey/ape have religion howcome we didnt adopt theres? srry proboly confusing ya'll

also, howcome humans are only species to have religion? i never seen animals go to chur..nvm that doesnt make sence. Animals seem not to even wonder (but idk since im not one of what ever animal they are)

First off, the distinction has been pointed out a few times in this thread that not even Darwin thinks we came FROM monkeys, but rather that we share a common ancestry with them (probably both coming form the same ameoba, or whatever).

Second, you bring up an interesting point, at least from a non-creation mentality. From a Christian mentality, God created man in His image. Other creatures were simply put on the earth for our benefit (i'd really like to know WHAT benefit wasps have, though :P) In that vein, they were not meant to be critical thinking, but simply beasts - either for burden, simple companionship, food, or whatever. In other religions, say budhist or hindu, it's not uncommon to believe that animals are intelligent, at least that's what I gathered from my Eastern Mythologies class last semester.

However, from a non-creation standpoint, that is a pretty good question. Is it just believed that we're the only creatures lucky enough to stumble upon intelligence? Obviously if you lack the ability to think critically, you cannot possibly begin addressessing the idea of religion and a higher being, so the relative lack of intelligence is what explains why they don't have a religion...as to what darwinism thinks about why we're the only ones that got to intelligence, I'd enjoy knowing more on that. Surely if we all started as an ameoba, and we evolved into bipedals and eventually into homo sapiens, why didn't any dogs evolve into canine sapiens or whatever (nice term there...)?

Nice thought, SD.

[JIMINATOR]

i never seen animals go to chur..
I dressed my dog up and took him to church. they were willing to let him but would not let me in, because of "standards" :)

the whole self-awareness thing is a very interesting question. humans have it, animals do not appear to have it.

an interesting experiment was done however, I think lipstick or something was put on one side of a monkey's face. The monkey was able to use a mirror, and recognized it's reflection and used it to wipe the lipstick off.

[Seriously Deadly]

I just want to say, on a side note, that I'm probably tending to comment/applaud/etc those w/ a christian background similar to my own while sort of snubbing the rest of you :o I want to make it clear how much I appreciate everyone's approach to this thread, though, regardless of your beliefs & how they do or do not differ from mine:

I just want to say - thanks to everyone that has posted! This has been civilized, intelligent, engaging and just downright interesting. I can't ever remember a religeous/political thread that went this long and didn't have someone wanting to smack someone else (I'll be the first to say, guilty as charged).

Everyone has voiced their opinions in a way that a) has been respectful of what others believe and b) has been a respectable & serious post in and of itself. Congrats to everyone for making this worthwhile!

:thumbs::thumbs:

really. its nice that this is a civilized conversation :P no one got banned or anything! lol at first i was scared to open this because i thught i would just piss me of :)

thanks all.

even JIM after making a smart @$$ remark about his dog and church :P [jk]

[Sirc]

Which religion are we talking about here? Are we talking about teaching creationism from a specific religions beliefs? Or are we just generally saying that it should be acknowledged that there is a theory that an omnipresent being created all things? If the later is the case, then that would pretty much be a one-sentence disclaimer, wouldn't it?

Greek "Mythology": (http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html)




Creation of the World

In the begining there was only chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, darkness. Then somehow Love was born bringing a start of order. From Love came Light and Day. Once there was Light and Day, Gaea (http://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Gaea/gaea.html#), the earth appeared.

Then Erebus slept with Night, who gave birth to Ether, the heavenly light, and to Day the earthly light. Then Night alone produced Doom, Fate, Death, Sleep, Dreams, Nemesis (http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Nemesis/nemesis.html), and others that come to man out of darkness.


That sounds about a plausible to me as anything else I've heard.

I've heard several sermons during my life where the minister has bashed the Darwinism and Big Bang theories, claiming they weren't true. I think equal consideration should be given to these scientific theories in church. Isn't that fair?

Science isn't a theory. There are scientific theories, yes. Darwinism and the Big Bang should be presented as scientific theories and not facts. Science class is for teaching science, both practical and theoretical. Church is for teaching religion and creationism. If you want your child to have exposure to religious beliefs, then teach them those beliefs and take them to church.

[Sirc]

As such, I do not subscribe to the "Big Bang" theory (and neither do most serious scientists of today).

I'm looking forward to seeing how you can back that statement up.

I do not subscribe to the "Creationist" theory (and neither do most serious religious leaders of today).

Check. Your move. ;)

[ME BIGGD01]

I don't have anything to input but it looks like everyone else posted here so I just don't want to be left out.:)

[Goober]

We could discuss the beginning of life till we die, and not change anyones minds. Not always, but whatever you are taught to believe during childhood is what you stick with.
I respect peoples right to worship their own religion. Most religions seem to be on the same path. Spiritual growth, moral principles and a reward at the end for being good.
While I do not condone the teaching of one religion in a state sponsered school (That is the job of the Church and their parents). I think that with the melting pot of cultures that we have (here in the United States) the High schools should teach the background of the major religions in hopes that it might teach tolerance for other peoples beliefs.
If the students want to further their studies of a particular religion, then they could go to a Church, Synagogue, Mosgue etc.
I truly believe that science and religion both play an important part of our lives, and that every now and then they will come in conflict with each other.
At which time I will depend on my faith, while waiting on science to change its theories.

[T I K]

We could discuss the beginning of life till we die, and not change anyones minds. Not always, but whatever you are taught to believe during childhood is what you stick with.
I respect peoples right to worship their own religion. Most religions seem to be on the same path. Spiritual growth, moral principles and a reward at the end for being good.
While I do not condone the teaching of one religion in a state sponsered school (That is the job of the Church and their parents). I think that with the melting pot of cultures that we have (here in the United States) the High schools should teach the background of the major religions in hopes that it might teach tolerance for other peoples beliefs.
If the students want to further their studies of a particular religion, then they could go to a Church, Synagogue, Mosgue etc.
I truly believe that science and religion both play an important part of our lives, and that every now and then they will come in conflict with each other.

Great spiritual and giving of thought, reads !! My :thumbs: 's to you all !!

Nice Goob's :)

And i think that should be taken even further on tolerance IMO!

A lot of teh probs i see is that while most Church's and religions teach faith, spiritual growth, etc !! They DO NOT teach tolerance for others religions, religious teachings, or for others beliefs !!

In example: This religion, or my religion is the true religion, so the others are wrong and they shall surely go to h@ll for practicing or believing in that religion or its teachings.

I would say its got to the point , but its been this way for thousands of years. If they cant be converted, they should be banished, shunned or even eliminated !! There is little to no teaching of tolerance of others acceptance or non-acceptance of others religious or non-religious choices !!

To me this is where most religions do Great disservice not only to themselves but to all humanity. Humanity with all its flaws and imperfections, should be less judgmental (if God or the almighty passes judgment would that not be there territory, and Not ours ) and more accepting if not more understanding of others religions and others beliefs ;)

This calm discourse/discussion here on GM is to be applauded :thumbs: and gives thought to a continuing hope and possibility of much more tolerance, by and for others !! :thumbs:

[Slice]

Life started from the ocean. Water is the bases of life. How or what created water, well that is another question.... We all came from the water or named oceans if you will.

[EXEcution]

Life started from the ocean. Water is the bases of life. How or what created water, well that is another question.... We all came from the water or named oceans if you will.
So what. The real question is WHY not HOW?

[He Is Legend]

we arrised from boogers

[MassacreAL]

So what. The real question is WHY not HOW?
becouse that was possible to happen... so question is not WHY but WHY NOT. we and out souls are only pieces of matter, i believe

[SASQUATCH]

Science is for explaining physical phenomena. Religion is for trying to understand the spiritual. There is no conflict. I myself have no problem reconciling evolution and God. My God is not bound by earthly ideas - opinions, theories, or even facts. I try to teach this philosphy to my children.

I think this statement is best said. It’s too bad that some people believe that it’s some kind of conflict when it should be understood and respected on both sides. This is when education comes in because the more you become educated especially in social skills and diplomacy helps to respect opinions, and with that it helps to learn ideas from others with acumen. As for school teaching or preaching religion is not the way to go in a public school because so many different religion and would hate to impose on other type of religion believes. Now if we would look at it as a history course teaching about religion believes and there culture would help to understand many and respect there believes and with that, science teaching as we all know is a big part of how we live today.

I watch History channel a lot and what I like about it, it talks about religion etc and different views from a prospective manner. From archeological find, religion, science and etc we learn from it and it helps to give us a sense of ideas and understanding and more. Expanding is crucial to our survival mentally and physical.

I read most of what was said and I also like what Goober said as well being that he is a religious man he still views and respects others believe without criticism.

Till today I still listen to other people that talk about religion and science and in what they believe because it helps me understand people and most of all I actually learn a few things and ideas that help me and I am not a religious man but I do respect them and I always try to listen.

Today I always wonder what the hell I am talking about but it helps to learn and with that it should help to improve what ever subject I talk about.

SAS – I am not perfect btw. . .

[Death Engineer]

I'm looking forward to seeing how you can back that statement up.

I do not subscribe to the "Creationist" theory (and neither do most serious religious leaders of today).

Check. Your move. ;)

Cool beanos. I'm looking forward to explaining my views and learning from what you and others will share. Forgive me if my responses are slower than par as I am working like a dog and have 2 sick kids and a tired wife this week. Also, during this time of the year, my Thurs. - Sun. evenings are filled with visions of basketballs and Longhorns winning another national championship. ;) I'll start a new thread when I get a chance and we'll "get it on."



No...not like that. Mind out of the gutter, guys, mind out of the gutter.

[EXEcution]

becouse that was possible to happen... so question is not WHY but WHY NOT. we and out souls are only pieces of matter, i believe
Well that's nice but you still are only stating what could be a fact.

I like going beyond the "basic" facts and actually analyzing the means it took for something to happen. Then you start asking more in-depth questions that might not be as easy to answer. Take this analogy for example.

Mr. X makes the first clock that works without the need for a wind-up mechanism. It runs on batteries that last a really long time. The clock tells time perfectly. Sometimes it needs to be ajusted for when Mr. X travels to another place where time is read differently. So it's not a step ahead of any other clocks in functionality.

Our world is that clock. It works perfectly after all. We haven't yet spun out of our orbit around the sun and we don't have to be "wound up" ergo our world's life and motion are perpetual. Our world sometimes needs "reajustment" so it makes sense to everyone. (I hope that's pretty easy to understand)

Now comes the tricky part. Who is Mr. X? Why did he make the clock? Just so it would be different from the other clocks? The clock didn't make itself that's for sure. How many other clocks were made before this one? Did they stop working? ... And the list goes on.

So in my opinion it's easy to convince ourselves that we didn't come from nothing. It is also easy to explain why we continue to exist, clocks can be taken apart after all (reverse engineering). But why the clock was made to work in such a way still remains a mystery. It seems to be too perfect to be created by a human so perhaps another being created it. Clocks don't come from other clocks!!

[JIMINATOR]

So in my opinion it's easy to convince ourselves that we didn't come from nothing. eh, something came from nothing. it makes no sense to suggest otherwise. if we were created, then who created the creator? and so forth. If we have always existed (have you ever known yourself to not exist?) then we were not created. sure, we have this thing called memory. the observer inside looks at the memory and say, jup, i am only x years old, i did not exist before that. well, where did the observer come from? how did he get inserted into your body? it should be obvious that you are not your body, after all, your cells are continually renewing themselves. losing a limb, while that would seriously suck, it would not diminish who and what you are... what do i believe? That there are an infinite number of observers. we each are tied into "something" and depending on what that is, we have senses, preceptions, and the ability to manipulate our environment. so i as person can interact with other people, eat food, play, poop, etc. i believe that every single thing in this universe, from complex to simple, is the same. afterall, why should god waste? why give us the experience of being people, but waste the experience of being the wind, or an animal, or a sunspot, or an animal? they may not be "good" experiences to us, but certainly they are valid experiences.....

[EXEcution]

Ok so it doesn't matter where God came from. WE didn't come from nothing. After all it's about us and not God. If we didn't exist there would never be a God because there would be no one to acknowledge that a God existed.

Just because something is valid doesn't make it essential. After all we are people who can manipulate out environment and change practically anything about ourselves (psychologically speaking). Beliveing everything is the same defies science because the wind and animals are distinctly different things. But you can often link things and trace their origins to God.

[Sirc]

Cool beanos. I'm looking forward to explaining my views and learning from what you and others will share. Forgive me if my responses are slower than par as I am working like a dog and have 2 sick kids and a tired wife this week. Also, during this time of the year, my Thurs. - Sun. evenings are filled with visions of basketballs and Longhorns winning another national championship. ;) I'll start a new thread when I get a chance and we'll "get it on."



No...not like that. Mind out of the gutter, guys, mind out of the gutter.

Erm, my statement was made in jest. I don't really think that most religious leaders don't subscribe to creationism. I was just making a point. I would still, however, like to see you back up your statement. And hear what your definition of a "serious" scientist is. :-)

[Death Engineer]

And now, evolution: The question, I am sure, is referring to the kind of evolution inferred from the fossil record. Contrary to evolutionists' claims, this is quite different from the sort of variation we see everyday: hair color, rose color, dog size, finches' beaks. No one disputes these sorts of variations. But they do not change the sort of thing the organism is: the person remains a person, the rose a rose, the dog a dog, and the finch a finch. Evolution, as it is commonly referred to, demands much more than this. It demands that there have been enough directional mutations, one added to another, through the ages, to change what was once a unicellular organism into the variety of life we see today. This kind of evolution is lacking a mechanism, however, as mutations are not known to do this. We see single mutations, such as antibiotic resistance, malarial resistance (which, in its homozygous form, confers the deadly sickle cell disease), and such, but we do not see mutations adding up anywhere to produce a new form or function. Instead, the vast majority of mutations we do see are negative, harming the organism involved. Those that do not harm, such as antibiotic resistance changes, have the effect of weakening the organism in any environment except the specific one in which that change helped it survive. Change the environment and the original form, if it still exists, proves strongest and takes over again. What we see, what we can work with, and what we see as the results of tests, is called biological stasis. No matter how many generations of E.coli bacteria are worked with, they remain....E.coli. No matter how many generations of fruit flies are subjects of forced mutations, they remain.... fruit flies. We can get different types of mice for our lab experiments until we run out of names for them. They remain mice. This is biological stasis. Variation seems to exist within what Genesis refers to as the "kind," and that is all. Does the scientific consensus overwhelmingly support evolution? Yes, it does. The question is, Why? First of all, most areas of science don't concern themselves with evolution or creation. Science tends to be so incredibly technical today that it is the science philosophers who have taken over the arguments concerning evolution and creation. The scientists in the labs and in the field are, with the exception of some geologists and paleontologists, not thinking about evolution. But that is what they were taught in university as true. And so they accept it. And they accept that anything else is some kind of weird religious doctrine. But if you ask the scientist to point to something in his own field which verifies the type of evolution that turns bacteria to bears, or even supports it, you will get mostly silence. He may point to another field, but very few are willing to point to something in their own field of study which supports evolution especially if you ask them to support evolution to the exclusion of creation.
Thus, to say that the majority of scientists accept evolution may be true on the surface, but that is about as far as their acceptance goes anyway. If a person wants to really find out which is true, it is best to dig into the evidence and read what has been written on both sides. When one meets those who have done so, one just might find a few more creationists than one expected to find. And an even greater number of anti-evolutionists. *Scientifically*, evolution is not something that has been shown to work. Yes, plants and animals change. They can vary in some possibly startling ways. But no breeder of horses, or dogs, or cattle, and no parent, when they hear, "there seems to be a mutation..." is going to excitedly ask, "Is it a good one?"
So I would humbly suggest that it is not the idea of creation which is keeping us in ignorance. It is, rather, the idea that evolution is proven and cannot be challenged that is begetting ignorance. It has not been proven in thousands upon thousands of generations of E.coli, nor has it been proven anywhere else. Remember we are not talking about simple variations within kind, or type, but actual change away from that type -- the type of change on which another change, or mutation, can build so that something new is produced. We have never seen that happen. And until students and researchers are freed from the nonsense that this idea cannot be challenged in the classroom or professional literature, we will remain bound in the kind of ignorance which has resulted in such low test scores for United States students, much to our embarrassment.