Man this place is dead...

[Sirc]

...must stir up controversy.

Okay, here it goes. They're trying to pass an amendment to the constitution making it illegal to burn or otherwise desecrate the American flag in protest. Yeah, good idea, lets let the Bush administration trample the constitution more in addition to all of the invasion of privacy crap he has already pulled in the name of national security.

Personally, the only time you will ever see me burning an American flag is to retire it in a Boy Scout cermony. But to make it illegal to do so in protest goes against the freedoms we have fought and died for in the past. I don't like it, but I believe the government needs to take a breath and stop taking away the rights that this country was founded on.

Fear the Bush administration. Fear the intrusions he is making into your private life. Fear the fact that he is making his own holy wars. Fear what America is becoming - a police state based on religious precepts. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

[EXEcution]

I don't feel that people can protest a point by burning or desecrating the one thing/symbol that people treasure and respect. Our flag represents more than a nation, it stands for unity and has more historical significance than most other American symbols.

Freedom of speech has its limits and if you can't see that than I honestly hope that you never become a politician.

I don't fear Bush who people can burn in effigy all day long if they so desire. No one has yet invaded my or my family's private life, we are not living in an Orwellian society and never will.

[Sirc]

No, freedom of speech DOES NOT have limits. Limits take away the freedom. You are accepting changes that should not happen. That will be the downfall of our free society. You must understand that every freedom that is taken away from us adds to the momentum, and if you think that it's gonna stop there then you are mistaken.

You think no one is invading your private life? Perhaps, not yet. But that is where we are headed. We are slowly moving towards a police state whether you can see it or not. You simply don't have the life experience yet to see how things have changed already. Young people accept the status quo, us old farts see nasty changes taking place with the Bush administration - in the Supreme Court, in the new Homeland Security laws, and in many other places.

Did you know that if the police get a search warrant on you they can simply break in your door and invade your house without even knocking and giving you a chance to let them in? You can thank Bush and his Supreme Court appointments for that.

Just wait until the internet is regulated by US law. It is going to happen - it is already happening. Bush and his administrations are evangelical control freaks. Unfortunately because of your youth you either can't see this, or you will see it too late.

[JIMINATOR]

sorry to be "unpatriotic" but the whole issue seems silly to me. you can burn it at the end of the life cycle but not before. the flag is just a thing, it is not the country, the bible, the quaran or anything more. But... But.... It means... Well, I am glad that you have cherished memories of it and that it represents certain values to you. But a thing is a thing is a thing. It is not anything more or anything less. It is certainly not worth anybody's life. If it means something to you then that meaning is not something someone can take away from you unless you let them. If idiots want to burn flags all day long, then let them. Getting upset only means that they have influenced you, good or bad, and that gives them power. Pass around the photos of the dumbass that caught himself on fire burning a flag and have a good laugh instead.

[ME BIGGD01]

All I have to say is burn the American Flag in front of me and I will do all in my power to whoop your ass that you are hospitalized. My actions would not be because I support this current Government but because Many good Americans died for that flag and what it represents. Anyone doing such a thing deserves death IMO and nothing less. Anyone who does such a thing is doing nothing but insulting America and mixing up the Govenment as America. If you want to burn something go look for something Federal. As far as the current Administration goes and blaming it for the lack of respect to the American Constitution and taking our rights away think a little further and make note that our rights have been deminishing way before Mr George Bush. I guess today it's just easier to blame the current President for our problems rather then blaming the real problem which is the average American who pays no attention to what is going on year after year until it's too late. I sometimes think there are just a few of us left in America that is willing to die to fight for the constitution Like I am. I would not stall once to fight live or die to defend what I believe in that other have dies for.

Stop blaming the Administration and blame yourselves for doing nothing about it. This Countries problems did not start 4-8 years ago. It started much earlier as Americans ignored it as they do now. Just like they ignore everything with Illegals coming to this country and allowed to stay to allow corporate America to pay less and kill normal slary wages. Just watch and make note of the Unions in this country become weaker and weaker just like the work force. So much crap and people base it all on the current administration. Would any of you be ready to start a revolution to over throw the current Gov? Although it is another one of our Constitutional rights, I did not think so.

I will fight for this country but not the pathetic Americans who take this country for granted and give it away. I piss on those people.

[NastyDawg]

All I have to say is burn the American Flag in front of me and I will do all in my power to whoop your ass that you are hospitalized. My actions would not be because I support this current Government but because Many good Americans died for that flag and what it represents. Anyone doing such a thing deserves death IMO and nothing less. Anyone who does such a thing is doing nothing but insulting America and mixing up the Govenment as America. If you want to burn something go look for something Federal. As far as the current Administration goes and blaming it for the lack of respect to the American Constitution and taking our rights away think a little further and make note that our rights have been deminishing way before Mr George Bush. I guess today it's just easier to blame the current President for our problems rather then blaming the real problem which is the average American who pays no attention to what is going on year after year until it's too late. I sometimes think there are just a few of us left in America that is willing to die to fight for the constitution Like I am. I would not stall once to fight live or die to defend what I believe in that other have dies for.

Stop blaming the Administration and blame yourselves for doing nothing about it. This Countries problems did not start 4-8 years ago. It started much earlier as Americans ignored it as they do now. Just like they ignore everything with Illegals coming to this country and allowed to stay to allow corporate America to pay less and kill normal slary wages. Just watch and make note of the Unions in this country become weaker and weaker just like the work force. So much crap and people base it all on the current administration. Would any of you be ready to start a revolution to over throw the current Gov? Although it is another one of our Constitutional rights, I did not think so.

I will fight for this country but not the pathetic Americans who take this country for granted and give it away. I piss on those people.


Very good points Bigg, I totally agree with it all.

[EXEcution]

All I have to say is burn the American Flag in front of me and I will do all in my power to whoop your ass that you are hospitalized. My actions would not be because I support this current Government but because Many good Americans died for that flag and what it represents. Anyone doing such a thing deserves death IMO and nothing less. Anyone who does such a thing is doing nothing but insulting America and mixing up the Govenment as America. If you want to burn something go look for something Federal. As far as the current Administration goes and blaming it for the lack of respect to the American Constitution and taking our rights away think a little further and make note that our rights have been deminishing way before Mr George Bush. I guess today it's just easier to blame the current President for our problems rather then blaming the real problem which is the average American who pays no attention to what is going on year after year until it's too late. I sometimes think there are just a few of us left in America that is willing to die to fight for the constitution Like I am. I would not stall once to fight live or die to defend what I believe in that other have dies for.

Stop blaming the Administration and blame yourselves for doing nothing about it. This Countries problems did not start 4-8 years ago. It started much earlier as Americans ignored it as they do now. Just like they ignore everything with Illegals coming to this country and allowed to stay to allow corporate America to pay less and kill normal slary wages. Just watch and make note of the Unions in this country become weaker and weaker just like the work force. So much crap and people base it all on the current administration. Would any of you be ready to start a revolution to over throw the current Gov? Although it is another one of our Constitutional rights, I did not think so.

I will fight for this country but not the pathetic Americans who take this country for granted and give it away. I piss on those people.
As young as I may be I agree compoletely with all those points. :thumbs:

[BobtheCkroach]

All I have to say is burn the American Flag in front of me and I will do all in my power to whoop your ass that you are hospitalized. My actions would not be because I support this current Government but because Many good Americans died for that flag and what it represents. Anyone doing such a thing deserves death IMO and nothing less. Anyone who does such a thing is doing nothing but insulting America and mixing up the Govenment as America. If you want to burn something go look for something Federal. As far as the current Administration goes and blaming it for the lack of respect to the American Constitution and taking our rights away think a little further and make note that our rights have been deminishing way before Mr George Bush. I guess today it's just easier to blame the current President for our problems rather then blaming the real problem which is the average American who pays no attention to what is going on year after year until it's too late. I sometimes think there are just a few of us left in America that is willing to die to fight for the constitution Like I am. I would not stall once to fight live or die to defend what I believe in that other have dies for.

Stop blaming the Administration and blame yourselves for doing nothing about it. This Countries problems did not start 4-8 years ago. It started much earlier as Americans ignored it as they do now. Just like they ignore everything with Illegals coming to this country and allowed to stay to allow corporate America to pay less and kill normal slary wages. Just watch and make note of the Unions in this country become weaker and weaker just like the work force. So much crap and people base it all on the current administration. Would any of you be ready to start a revolution to over throw the current Gov? Although it is another one of our Constitutional rights, I did not think so.

I will fight for this country but not the pathetic Americans who take this country for granted and give it away. I piss on those people.

Agreed. If you wanna protest the current administration, go for it. Burn pictures of Bush or something like that. But to burn the flag is to make a statement that this country and its history are evil/bad/whatever. This country is a good country. We have an administration that's questionable at best, but that a) doesn't speak for who the rest of the citizens are and b) doesn't speak of our history and what we have accomplished.

The flag is a symbol of unity, strength, blood sweat and tears, and so much more. To burn it isn't a way of showing that you hate bush - Burning it is a way of showing that you don't care about the last 22x years that this country has existed.

[Sirc]

Biggs: You can't both make burning the flag illegal and protect the constitution at the same time. It's one or the other. Americans have the right to express any opinions they wish, and to demonstrate symbolically by doing things like burning the flag. You don't like it, and I don't like it, but I wouldn't deny them the right to do it.

Jim: Are you saying that the flag is just a thing but the bible and quaran are not just things? Of course they are just things - they're just books that have been printed in some factory somewhere. Paper and ink.

The point is that just because you disagree with the way some people choose to protest doesn't mean that they shouldn't have the right to do it.

[BobtheCkroach]

Unfortunately because of your youth you either can't see this, or you will see it too late.[/FONT]

Generally I really hate it when someone claims our inferiority in an area due to our youth, but politics is an area where it's fairly true. I struggle with trying to see whether stuff is a "big deal" even though it doesn't feel like it to me. For me, the flag burning thing isn't a big deal - legal or illegal. What Jim said is right - if the flag means something to me, you can burn a million flags - it won't change what it symbolizes to me. It personally irks me that people burn the flag, but they should be welcome to do so if they like.

Hindsight is 20/20 I'm afraid, and the only way to really see what the right choice was sometimes is to see it in the afterlight. There are a lot of things that I guess I lack the proper angle to really see things. I was all for us invading Iraq, b/c Saddam was long overdue to be dethroned. Then they said that the info was false and I said that was OK b/c Saddam still needed to go down. As I get a bit older now, I'm definitely in favor of us staying the distance and finishing what we started, but I'm beginning to see things differently. I guess not being around for Vietnam makes it hard to understand what it's like to go through a war that has nothing to do with us. :(

Anyways, I guess all I'm trying to say is, be patient with us Sirc. When we vote and support, we have to follow what our head and heart tells us is right, the same as anyone. Unfortunately our head doesn't contain decades worth of history that help make that decision. Following an older person's recommendation on what to support would be 1000x more foolish than making the decision ourselves.

I'm still glad that Kerry didn't get in, I think, but I'm also anxiously awaiting the day that Bush leaves office.

[TheMaster]

I have to agree with Sirc on this one.

Though I find burning the American flag to be truely insulting. I would never burn the flag myself, as countless tens of thousands of people throughout our history fought and died for this country, and under that waving flag. That flag is a symbol of this great nation. And today we still have people overseas fighting and dying for this nation and to preserve our freedom. And that freedom includes symbolic speech. And burning the flag is symbolic speech. It is symbolic speech I do not agree with. If you want to oppose the war or the Bush Administration, you should speak out with your mouth, not a lighter. But as far as I am concerned, it is their right, under the Bill of Rights.

[BobtheCkroach]

Not gonna happen: Blocked by one vote (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19615409-23109,00.html)

You read australian news sites to find out about American news?!

[TheMaster]

Whatever works lol.

I was watching C-SPAN live when the vote happened. I saw speeches by John Kerry (D) and Bill Frist (R) before the vote happened. I imagine that with such a close vote the GOP will try again later.

[Die Hard]

Well sircles is a little older then me; not much, and Jim is way older. However, I'm old enough to have outseen a few politicians.

My take is that they are all out for themselves. I haven't voted in years and I'm unlikely to do so in the near future.

Viva democracy!