mel gibson part 2

[JIMINATOR]

warning - very offensive language
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3159127191960661978&q=Kramer+racist

the flushing sound you can hear is Michael Richards career
he is the guy that played kramer on sienfield

he must have been on drugs or serious medication

[BobtheCkroach]

That's really quite sad.

I don't think saying that "I've lost a lot of respect" is quite the right words, b/c I'm not sure how much I "respected" him for being on a good show, per se, but that definitely makes me sad.

[TheMaster]

I saw the video on CNN, and I was offended by his remarks too. I think the only way I would have laughed at that was if I was on drugs as well.

[He Is Legend]

That Silly Kramers At It Again !

[He Is Legend]

His appology video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9107547518165183938&q=Kramer+racist

[Pure_Evil]

some things will never change......

[FUS1ON]

He sure screwed up big time, but he sounded and looked sincere in his apology and hopefully some good will come from this.

[He Is Legend]

frlz

[BobtheCkroach]

Black people who act like that suck.

Sometimes i wish it was like 50 years ago when people act disrespectful like that. Sometimes they need to remeber we have freedom of speech and we can say what we want -_-

I didnt hear any shock and awe when he called kramer a cracker
what a bunch of bull****.

Yes, they absolutely have the right to say what they want, and in return a black person has the right to be offended by what is said. Your comment is ridiculous. If I came up to you, ran you up and down, called your wife/mother/sister whoever a whore, etc, I'm willing to be that you wouldn't respond "hey, he's got the right to say it."

Why should a black person act differently when someone says something offensive towards their entire race?

I definitely agree that there's a double standard regarding how a black person can say cracker w/o an issue, but still, there's no reason that they were in the wrong for getting upset.

[BobtheCkroach]

yes, but those black guys heckled him the entire show prolly, so they were called their appropriate title.

That's completely disgusting. They might or might not have heckled him, but in no way does that justify calling them a racial slur.

And to dub that "their appropriate title" is completely sad.

[Nick]

skin color, religious beliefs, forced mixing pot due to immigration and political views....

humanity ain't out of the wood by a longshot :dunno:

[FUS1ON]

yes, but those black guys heckled him the entire show prolly, so they were called their appropriate title.

Marz that is a load of bullshit, there is no reason to slur someone like that. Those hecklers paid their money to get in there and if they want to act up and get thrown out then that is their choice. Normal people do not act that way and the management should have stepped in before it escalated that far.

[JIMINATOR]

wow. ok, about the concert, i didn't get that he was being heckled. What I understood was that they were talking during his performance. certainly if they were disrupting the show, they should have been asked to leave. on the other hand if he had told them to stop being assholes, you would never had heard about it and there would not be an apology video. and yes, they were assholes. but that fact is not related to the fact that they are black. the problem is that he singled them out by race. "n****r" is just a massive slur that encompasses everything that has ever been said to be bad about an entire race. so you will hear people either being called the word, or told to stop acting like one or to stop being one. we act surprised to see this on a video. black people live with this every day. how did the people in the audience feel when they were singled out with this term? i also did not care for his "the man" comments. do i believe he is racist? not consciously. but the whole stream of conscious thing comes from somewhere. Ultimately we are all racist to one degree or another. it is part of the human makeup, to ensure that our particular group survives. but that also is why we have intelligence and compassion, to help overcome things like that.

[Sirc]

I don't know if he's racist or not, but just because he called them n****rs doesn't mean he is racist. When you are angry and in an argument like that you look for things to say that will do the most damage to your "opponent". Kramer knew what to say to get them really pissed off. If they had been white and fat he'd have let lose with fat insults. If they had been women he'd have let lose with sexually abusive language. I'm not saying that he doesn't have issues, obviously he does to get so verbally abusive. I just see this as him choosing ammunition based on his target, and not necessarily based on his personal beliefs.

Or at least that's what I'd like to think. I've always liked the guy, starting way back when he used to have a Saturday kid's show where he used to play with GI Joes and stuff.

[JIMINATOR]

actually what you say makes a lot of sense. so it wasn't meant as racism but as a means to piss off the other person. and yeah, i know that a lot of people do that when they are nasty mean. still unfortunate as it points out a lack of self control, but much more understandable.

[ME BIGGD01]

Who cares what he said. Is it all that bad? He called someone a the big N word. What the hell does that mean? I am sick and tired of hearing about how bad a word the N word is. I have called people that many of time to their face and you know what???? The term fit the description. In fact I have a girl who lives across the street from my house and she dates nothing but N's. Now I ask you this... Because I describe these people N's does that make me a rascist? Now with that I will say I probably have more black, hispanic chinese, and every other race friends than most of you.

I want to know who put it into everyones mind that the big N word is so bad or worst than calling someone an asshole? An insult should be taken as an insult and no matter what there is no hitting below the belt. Kramer was a funny guy but I dislike that he apologized for his actions in the way he apologized. I mean he should of said it how it was. Hell I have seen it and it pisses you off how loud and rude some can be in say a movie theater. Even black comedians joke about it. To me it is not funny considering everyone else paid to see the show as well. Ask my wife about a time I took her and a gang was doing nothing but cursing and talking through out the movie. After I screamed out to them some what exactly what mr kramer said I got nothing but clapping.

I wish you people would judge by ones opinion of a race rather then ones actions to a particular person of race. It makes perfect sense if Mr Kramer just bashed black people and called them the big N everytime and did nothing but make fun of them in his sketches but that is not the case. You take a person like Chris Rock who does nothing but insult white people in every show and is considered funny. You can kiss my ass with that sort of double standard which seems to be one of the PC's shoved in every ones face. You can accept it but I will not and I will insult anyone I feel fit who pisses me off. You are all guilty of it and possibly do not even recognize it.
Someone orders the last Big Mac and you say to yourself that Fat F. What difference does it make if you think it or say it? A asian cuts you off and you yell out open your eyes!!! Does that mean you hate all asian people? No, it means that someone pissed you off and you took the first thing to your mind that you saw that would seem to offend that person. I get called many racial names. WOP, Guinne, spaghetti eating what ever. Who cares until you have to throw. Talking it and walking it are two different things.

If any of you are trully offended by this you need to get over yourself. It is nature that no liberal can change. People will always hate other people. If it's not race, it's something else. Who the F cares? If you do go back to fantasy land because it never will change. And if you think you are so perfect you can pm me and I will schedule a trip to an area just a few miles from my house and we'll see how much you get along with the people there.

Oh and Sirc, your point was exactly what I think happened. Out of rage he did what you said. Wrong or right what ever anyone's opinion is thatis probably the thing that took place. With that I will say good post whiteboy:D

[Ma)N(iac]

:rofl:

He's Crazy

[JIMINATOR]

well, i am glad that biggs helped clarify that there are two types of black people, those that are his lots of good buddies and have his seal of approval, and those other one that do not have basic human values and deserve to be called the n-word. of course I imagine that line may bounce around a bit on some days, depending on if biggs has had an argument with someone or has landed a good job, etc. n-word one day. good buddy the next. and what the hell, they use the term for themselves anyway. you are only just saying what they say.

[ME BIGGD01]

well, i am glad that biggs helped clarify that there are two types of black people, those that are his lots of good buddies and have his seal of approval, and those other one that do not have basic human values and deserve to be called the n-word. of course I imagine that line may bounce around a bit on some days, depending on if biggs has had an argument with someone or has landed a good job, etc. n-word one day. good buddy the next. and what the hell, they use the term for themselves anyway. you are only just saying what they say.

No I was not trying to say there were two kinds of black people. I thought I was pretty clear but if not I shall try again.

As an example put on bet right now and look at one of those videos showing thug and gang life in all it's glory. Would you call those people upstanding people? Now what those people are showing you is what you see on the street. The new slang language, street talk.

Ok on a side note, lets take our kids and ask ourself do you approve of that kind of music? Now step back and look at all the kids today. Is it bad to call it what it is? If you are a black person or if you were as an example how would you feel considering this is a representation of them.

Now if so many here feel so hurt by racism, why do you not speak up when someone is rascist toward your race? I mean are you for equal rights and if so do you honestly feel there is equal rights acroos the board? If you put equal rights on a scale should that scale lean?

My main point was who cares about rascism. The people who are rascist are the ones crying about it.

[ME BIGGD01]

If you call a black person the N word, a Arabian a towel head, a white person a cracker, or a Chinese person a chick and they get offended, then that proves that these certain people allow prejudice and saying its ok. I have black friends that i call the N word all the time, they never get offended, they think its funny as hell. When people can make jokes and call other races derogatory terms in a joking way without anyone getting mad or offended then the world would be a better place.

In the next 2000 years we will prolly all be a mixture of the same color anyway so who the hell cares about racism.

racism is used as a crutch for minotriy groups. They are always the one crying about it regardless of their hate for white people. Hate who you want and have pride in your own race. Be proud to be white because that is the way God made you. I must warn you though that although I tell you to have pride you will be considered a rascist if you do. I already proven that here many of times. It's ok to have black pride but rascist to have white pride. Get the point? Never back down to having pride no matter what or how PC you are brainwashed into. Becuase of this, this country is weakened. Too many excuses that can never make things move forward.

2000 years I will be dead so who cares.

[JIMINATOR]

be proud of what you are because that is the way god made you? wow, that is certainly a non-achievement to strive for. i'd say to be proud of the things you do and accomplish in life. the way you are born is to one degree or another the cross you have to bear. being a tall white male you are pretty much up there in the categories of "best potential situation to be born in". rich would help, but nobody can have it all. so i have heard you whining on these forums about minorities. apparently they are all a bunch of freeloaders that are stealing your bread and butter, getting a free ride on the government taxes that upstanding people like yourself have to pay. what a victim mentlity type of world you live in. sorry life sucks for you man. hopefully it will get better one day, and then maybe you can give the man next to you a hand up.

[Sirc]

dad?

:funny:

[Sirc]

be proud of what you are because that is the way god made you? wow, that is certainly a non-achievement to strive for. i'd say to be proud of the things you do and accomplish in life. the way you are born is to one degree or another the cross you have to bear. being a tall white male you are pretty much up there in the categories of "best potential situation to be born in". rich would help, but nobody can have it all. so i have heard you whining on these forums about minorities. apparently they are all a bunch of freeloaders that are stealing your bread and butter, getting a free ride on the government taxes that upstanding people like yourself have to pay. what a victim mentlity type of world you live in. sorry life sucks for you man. hopefully it will get better one day, and then maybe you can give the man next to you a hand up.

There is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself. If you don't you will get walked on. I'm all for equal opportunity, but that's as far as it goes. I feel like I'm being screwed when I see my place of business using their Affirmative Action policies. I see city police and fire departments lowering their standards to try to balance minority ratios as a direct threat to my safety. I think it's ridiculus that on the campus I work at they have a Black Engineer's Club. I see the NAACP as a direct threat against my own interests. I see the Revs' Jackson and Sharpton as the biggest racists in this country today. It works both ways. If you think that whites should just sit quietly by and allow minority organizations do whatever the hell they want then you've got another guess coming.

Boohoo for the poor suppressed minorities. How about this - how about their community leaders put less energy into fighting for things that literally amount to reverse discrimination, and more energy into cleaning up their communities and educating their people and keeping them in school and off the streets so the kids actually have a fighting chance when the time comes to make their own way in society. How about they require people on welfare to perform some sort of community service to earn what they are being given? Take the damn jobs "that no-one wants to do" away from the illegal aliens and give them to legal citizens who can work but won't, because they simply don't have to.

Honestly Jiminator, you are as far left as BIGG is far right. But where BIGG offers some solutions (however radical), you never offer solutions, you only criticize. I'd like to hear how you think things should be handled once in a while.

[ME BIGGD01]

be proud of what you are because that is the way god made you? wow, that is certainly a non-achievement to strive for. i'd say to be proud of the things you do and accomplish in life. the way you are born is to one degree or another the cross you have to bear. being a tall white male you are pretty much up there in the categories of "best potential situation to be born in". rich would help, but nobody can have it all. so i have heard you whining on these forums about minorities. apparently they are all a bunch of freeloaders that are stealing your bread and butter, getting a free ride on the government taxes that upstanding people like yourself have to pay. what a victim mentlity type of world you live in. sorry life sucks for you man. hopefully it will get better one day, and then maybe you can give the man next to you a hand up.

Whining Jim? I think you have the wrong guy. You don't like my opinions, well sorry to hear that. I am not speaking about opinions all the time but stating facts when it comes to equal rights. I would debate that with anyone anyday. You may be alright with certain things and that is great for you but many people such as the blue collar worker continues to get screwed.
You make foolish comments regarding myself saying being proud of your race is such a big accomplishment when it is not and I never said it was and it does not have to be. Not sure where you are going there but what ever. What I gather from your comments is that nobody should be proud of their race. Is that correct? I guess you can not understand that not once have I judged a person because of their race. You may interput things anyway you like but when you comment against others you should try to fully understand atleast the facts or whatever the person is saying. I take it you are not a sinner? Not once in your life you used a derogitory comment to another person that may have seemed racial? I find that hard to believe for anyone to claim such a thing. My comments were completely directed toward that name calling in general as it is just as bad as a racial slur because it is done out of anger. I guess point was missed as I mentioned that anytime I ever called someone a name that it was judged by character and not the color of their skin. Although the words were different the point was still there whether you understood it or not. How many ethnic people are joining you this holiday season? In my family we are completely a mixed bunch. Spanish, Black, Irish, Italian, German, American Indian, and let me not forget Dutch. I have all races in my family and those kids are good kids (except one who is a pain in the ass)

You say I am whining when I speak the truth regarding minorities getting things they have not worked for that white people who actually may need it? I don't understand the logic there. I mean is it wrong to say it is not fair or are you saying that there is no such thing as a white person that may need assistance? All white people are born kings and rich? I know I have not come from a silver spoon and my father broke his back supporting his kids. Why is it he was not able to send his kids to college with the same beneifits as a minority? He did not make that much money and with 8 kids what was the reason he did not get the help? That's whining? You think that's ok? You support equal rights right? I agree with you on being proud on accomplishments but I disagree that you should not be proud of your race. It seems today that being a white person I am blamed for acts I never did or anyone in my family. I am part of the blame for what other people did. I never owned any slaves and I never killed any indians yet I am subject to blame for these things because I am white. That's like saying all Germans are responsible for killing all those Jewish people and will be forever. This is not a racial argument as you may be looking for it to be but those are facts which when stated should never be looked as whining. Saying so is pathetic. If someone moved to America from the France and does not speak English why is that person not considered a minority? Is this a global thing or is it because that person is white. What if that person was spanish or black from France, would he be a minority? Sorry to bust your bubble but to me that's a double standard. If it's whining to you than so be it.

Jim, you can try to twist anything I post but your view does not reflect my message. Sorry if you were unable to see that. :(
I refuse to accept the blame for anything I did not cause and will not consider anyone held down because of their race. To me anyone who does that is a rascist. Equal means equal and thats all I could ever wish. Won't happen but one can hope.:thumbs:

[ME BIGGD01]

Sirc, with all honesty my views seem very extreme but like I said earlier that is my intention. I am sure you heard (read but you know what I mean)me say shoot them in the skull many times. My intention is to push the argument so much on the other side sometimes to prove my point to how people will judge from one thing instead of looking at the whole thing.

For instance as of late we have seen cops taser someone and people are making judgements without actually looking at the whole picture. Already from the first post of this thread the poster said too much force. I wonder what gives anyone the abilitly to make that judgement when they were not there. Right or wrong unless they were there they should not be able to judge.

Then you have kramer who snapped and starting calling someone names which seemed racial. I responded with all honesty that I have used that term many times but it is not because it had to do with the color of anyones skin but with the character which one may be dealing with. Again with the judgements without knowing the truth of what happened. My intention is to push it to another level to show the hypoctical responses from everyone. We have all used words as an offensive way to harm someone (except you and I ofcourse:) ). I gave examples such as calling someone fat. If you do so does that make you prejudice against all heavy people? I thought you nailed it right on the head with that one post and I agreed.

My main point is nobody is perfect so nobody should judge unless they are involved.

[ME BIGGD01]

For those that feel my approach is a bit too extreme I will tone it down a tad. If you are ever offended by something I apologise as it was not my intention. At times I can very aggressive with things I believe in. Regardless if you agree or disagree I just try to make a point.

Just so you know or if you wonder what the hell is this guy on or is this guy freaking nuts with some of the things I say, I will tell you how I come to my judgements and what makes me so agrressive toward such topics. Myabe for once some that judge me before understanding will have some insight.

Basically I judge with my daughter in mind.
As an example I will throw some out.

Would I accept my daughter being around this person?
Will my daughter be safe?
Will My daughter get a good education?
Will my daughter get a fair shot in the workplace after she graduates College?
Will my daughter be safe (I know I said that already but it is a main concern)?
Will my daughter ever get stuck on drugs?
Would I dance to this musc with my daughter?
Would my daughter be ok if something happened to me?
Will my daughter be safe?

With that if you can understand that when you think about your own children you seem to want everything perfect for them without any chances of something going wrong. Sorry but my kid is my world and I want things to be as perfect as they can be and mainly fair. For the young people in college now or just graduated, your opinions may change on things as you move forward. And I guarantee your parents have the same concerned ot atleast hope. In todays society, I do not know what to think and I mostly do not approve of anything.

[JIMINATOR]

Well, i might have used the word n****r as a kid, but then i grew up. that was a long time ago. tell me, in your multi-ethnicity gathering tomorrow, would you call a black person there the n-word? (in front of others) What if "they were acting like one" and deserved it? I bet the answer is no. Because this word hurts, and it would poison your gathering just like it poisoned the comedy club where it was said. did you notice how the people started walking out? why would you treat strangers to a lesser standard than you treat your family? respecting other people isn't really for the other people, it is for respecting yourself. the type of person you are is not about how you treat your family, but about how you treat the people you hate or dislike.

as for welfare recipients and immigrants stealing jobs, where are your rants about the wholesale corporate fleecing that happens on a daily basis?

How about the oil companies that made more money this year than any company ever, yet are getting massive tax credits to search for oil?

How about the enrons and lionels and other companies that have stolen billions in employee pensions?

How about new york, which gets the least amount of money back from the federal government compared to what they pay in?

how about companies that are relocating their corporate headquarters offshore in order to avoid paying federal taxes?

there are lots of things you could be complaining about that take more money out of your pocket then minorities and illegals. but since it is all white corporate america, that makes it all right. and who knows, if you play your cards right you might get to head one of those companies.

[ME BIGGD01]

[quote=JIMINATOR]Well, i might have used the word n****r as a kid, but then i grew up. that was a long time ago. tell me, in your multi-ethnicity gathering tomorrow, would you call a black person there the n-word? (in front of others) What if "they were acting like one" and deserved it? I bet the answer is no. Because this word hurts, and it would poison your gathering just like it poisoned the comedy club where it was said. did you notice how the people started walking out? why would you treat strangers to a lesser standard than you treat your family? respecting other people isn't really for the other people, it is for respecting yourself. the type of person you are is not about how you treat your family, but about how you treat the people you hate or dislike.

OK Jim, the words were intended to hurt. Out of anger that is what happends. As I said I judge from character not color. People walked out because the guy snapped and lost control. Is he rascist? I doubt it but it seems the judgement is already in according to you. Also I would not consider this equal to Mel Gibson either. Kramer was directing his argument to a particular person and Mel directed his to a race. I can not explain it any clearer.

"as for welfare recipients and immigrants stealing jobs, where are your rants about the wholesale corporate fleecing that happens on a daily basis?"
Ummm, those rants are there. Trust me I have had this conversation many times here. I am not happy with it. It's like a double whammy as the company does not pay taxes for the employees and can pay less wges at the same time putting an American out of work. C'Mon Jim you know me beter than that. Can you imagine how my gut feels when I hear our Goverment people saying they (illegals ) do jobs Americans don't want to do? I mean I freaking flip and for once I want to hear someone say It;s not that Americans wont do the job it's that the job/company needs to pay an American a decent salary to live on to be able to do that job. This is a very touchy subject with me because for every illegal who gets a job here an American loses not just a job but the worth and ability to improve their family and their standard. This illegal option is lowering our standards and it is killing this countires abilities to progress and continue to lead in such a world where competeion is growing rapidly. How the hell is a family going to pay for college when all the blue collar workers are bieng killed off for lower wages. I see wages being lowered but everything going up. This is not the smart direction and I can not say that is just an opinion.

"How about the oil companies that made more money this year than any company ever, yet are getting massive tax credits to search for oil?'

I am not happy about that either. Infact I am not happy about either parties taxes and taxing. It's a broken system that will one day make 2 sides. Rich and poor. Goodbye middle class. I believe that with so many intelligent people in this country we can not figure out an alternative to this fuel. The again, it's all corrupt and I am sure they have the ability to run cars on water.

How about the enrons and lionels and other companies that have stolen billions in employee pensions?
If it was up to me I would of hung them in public until their bodies faded to dust. We all lost on this and it's not right. This is a perfect example of this countries condition and many people ignore this.

How about new york, which gets the least amount of money back from the federal government compared to what they pay in?
I freaking hate it. The schools suck, full of gangs, extremely high tax on everything. Property tax is avg 9000 a year in a middle class area. 4500-6000 in a drug area and if you are rich it doesnt matter but to me it's too expensive to have a box on a curb to live in. Gas prices are so high here also because not the war but the tax. The traffic is bad, and Manhattan to a person who lives here is nothing but a big scam in itself. Everything is a scam here. Parking is 30-50 dollars for the day, tolls are 4.50 each way so it cost me almost 100 bucks to go in and out of the city. Lash and Goober will agree as they saw it when they were here. I persoanlly want to get out of here and probably would be planning sooner if my wife was not sick. Until that very day I may decide to get the hell out of this place.

how about companies that are relocating their corporate headquarters offshore in order to avoid paying federal taxes?
I see this in NY as well so they do not have to pay the high taxes here and the unions. It's this very thing that drives me mad. I mean nobody seems to be paying attention. Jobs over seas will put everyone out of work. Look at the quality of service we get today. From filling up our gas tank to filing our guts. The service sucks everywhere. Make a call and you are connecting to India. I have no problem with anyone working but if it is an american company making there money in America then they should be having Americans working. If it was up to me I would have all these companies boycotted and all products dismissed until they change this. Americans can do this if they were not lazy. All we need to do is actually stick to gether because it us who buy things. I have no problem if they do business in other countries but if they do busines here that business is to be worked and controlled from here.

"there are lots of things you could be complaining about that take more money out of your pocket then minorities and illegals. but since it is all white corporate america, that makes it all right. and who knows, if you play your cards right you might get to head one of those companies"

Jim I run a small company myself and finding it hard these days to do it. I am an honest businessman and always try to do the right thing by my clients no mater how much of a pain in the ass they could be sometimes. That is the American dream and I enjoy it because I employ myself and put myself through school to learn these things. I have a set of standards I live by and There were times in the past I always prayed that I would not ever lose my morals and asked not to be ever put into a situation where I have sold my sould. I will never be rich the way i think and feel and I am ok with that. I do not need to be rich because I know I will always earn money the honest way. And If I become poor, I will work harder to make sure everyone is taken care of in my family. I will not ask for help as long as I am able to walk or talk. It's not in my nature to it any other way. I will follow the rules and obey the laws for the better of this country. It is all I can do but I will fight for what I believe is right.

There is one thing you never mentioned. Something I have realized just this past year which I never paid attention to. Health Insurance!!!! This is a real problem in this country. This very thing is killing people. As you know my wife has stage 4 cancer. When she worked she had the insurance for the family through her Job. To get it for my company was not an affordable option. Well now in my current situation I am have no choice to pay for this monthly out of pocket for my family. I will tell you it has drained us almost completly dry and has forced me to work even more than I did before. This was a main reason nobody hardly saw me this past year. Work Work Work. You know I kick myself for not paying attention to this but since I have no choice now I thank God that I have been able to cover my expenses every month. Really with all the work I lost this year I know someone iis looking over my shoulder. The main problem is that if I miss one payment or late a day they will cancel us and My wife will not be able to get her treatments. Hell nobody would insure us and you know what that means. This concerns me not because of my wife but for the people that could not afford or pay for their insurance. I am paying over 1200.00 a month now and that does not include the copays and prescriptions. (Typing this is making me think about it more and I really need to give thanks to the big guy) Although I am extremely stressed with my workload I can not think about what stress I would have if I missed an insurance payment. You can imagine to where some of my bitterness may come and I swear things just do not look good in my eyes the way this country is being run. Last year this time and a week ago, I did not know what the hell was going to happen and that little scare woke me up to lots of things. Dealing with a 4yr old and a sick wife may have gotten the best of me this year but I will continue to strive and work hard. I bel3ve that is all a true American needs to do.

[JIMINATOR]

thanks biggs, that's a great non-confrontational post. again, i hope that things work out for you.
i also agree about the medical industry, which features costs doubling at twice the rate of inflation. it is all a big scam, from the insurance companies, to drug companies, to lawers and then to hospitals. We the consumers wind up paying all the money for this. I happen to believe that most doctors are honest, but everything else is rigged. I watch "house" on tv, and I have to laugh when they order test after test. the reality is that lots of these tests cost thousands of dollars to run, and the insurance companies would be happier to just see you die. and if you ever - ever - have to go to the hospital with no insurance, wow, are you in for a serious screwing then. they charge you for all types of shit, and the charges have nothing to do with reality. insurance companies get negotiated rates. someone with no insurance gets the shaft.