Mondale rips Cheney a new one

[Mad Fox]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/19/mondale.cheney.ap/index.html

Its about time that someone did something and publicly spoke out. It is very unusual for past leaders to criticize in such a manner.

[NastyDawg]

Mondale, lol like he's going to pull a lot of attention. Wake me up when he's done talking. Understand what your trying to say Fox but Mondale........ come on, who cares what he said or says anymore, for that fact when Carter was in office. Sorry not a Mondale fan here.

[ME BIGGD01]

LOL, what a joke. Mondale? The worst administration in the history of the world goes to that one. I wonder if you are aware of all they did against America which we are dealing with today. Look it up before making a post about someone bashing Cheney or Bush. If you knew I am sure you would not have wasted the bandwidth with this pathetic link to a pathetic persons pathetic comment.

And for the record that is not ripping someone a new one. Ripping someone a new one is doing it outside of their political BS conferences and doing it where it counts. Saying something in public and trying to make the administration look bad has been done since both elections.

From your posts you have never ever made one comment what you think should be done. To me that is pathetic and shows you honestly do not have a clue what the hell is really going on. I do not mean to sound like I am attacking you madfox but please stop being a poster of somone elses views. How can anyone comment on your views other than you think what these people are saying is good and correct. Atleast throw out some accuracy that you see in the article. To say finally someone did this is just plain foolish as the Democrats have been undermining the current administration since day 1. Not one point you followers make is accurate and shows you live off of biased media to get your information. There is so much ignorance that it sickens me. I will debate any person on this board anytime and I swear I will make those who accept feel like a moron because they do not know the truth. Do you care to debate me fox? I will off the gun be able to rebuttal anything you comment on. I will have facts and dates so if you accept you better have your google ready to respond back to me.

Debate me if you will but if you dislike the adminstration atleast have your own views and comments along with real and accurate reason to what you don't like about it. The problem is there is so many people like you it's no wonder that this country is messed up.

Debate me live pal and be prepared to be ripped a new one with actual facts that anyone can look up.:mad:

[Mad Fox]

Wow Bigs I like the intensity of your writing it is very forceful. In saying that Mondale ripped Cheney a new i was refering to his comments on vice presidential power. I ended up watching the short version of the interview that Wolf Blitzer did. Mondale was co-interviewed with President Carter.

What I found most interesting was that Mondale critized the Bush administration in the following terms saying that unlike Carter's administration they kept the peace, didn't mislead the public and worked within the parameters of the law. In essence this was a shot against the Bush administration. I dare say that the Bush administration has violated these principles.

When it comes to violating peace everyone can easily agree that Bush administration violated that. Any American will agree with me that Afghanistan was a just war. But when it comes to Iraq I think that President Bush lied to the American people and violated the peace. Iraq was a mistake. THE ORIGINAL reason for invasion was WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Which mostly likely never existed ( reference Valerie Plame's outing as a CIA agent for that little diddy). So the president then spun things around so that the new mission was to "free" the Iraqis from tryanny. Whatever happened to self determination. A sovereign nation has the right to determine its own form of government and we violated that. As a matter of fact self determination has been a guiding principle since the end of WWI and the signing of the treaty of Versailles: when President wilson introduced his 14 points. Like the Monroe doctrine a well established American concept the Wilson doctrine could be uttered in the same breath. By violating this the President broke a long tradition. And now it appears a final peace could never be brokered with the constant civil war that rages in Iraq.

In terms of following the law, the president has decided that it doesn't apply to him. Domestic spying can occur if the president goes to the 1977 Nsa law requiring him to get prior approval. Our president disregarded that. The presient also has imprisoned americans illegally under the patriotic act which violates the constitution.

That is just a small snapshot of what I think.

[ME BIGGD01]

Domestic Spying--Typical argument but where were you all saying this during the Clinton Administrtion? Did you know that they were reading your e-mail and listening to your Phone converstions then? Look at the bils the Mt Bill signed while he was the President.

Imprisoned Americans illegally? Who and where did you get that information?

Violating peace? This American does not think Bush or any part of America violated peace. If it was not for America there would be no such word. Was there peace in Iraq before the war? Do you consider peace because it does not affect you? Don't you see that eventually the peace today you have would come to an end if we are not fighting in the middle east? Are you aware that Saddam was involved with the first attemp on the Trade building in early 90's also an attack on an American president? Do you think that if we left Saddam there we would always be at peace with them? Don't you think peace as a high price tag and it does not come by words? With your words that would mean that we should have never been involved when Hitler was trying to take over. Although Europeans would have been all sporting a new swat sticker I am sure they are really happy it was us that helped them defeat the tyrant.

Afganistan is the only real war? Are you saying that the war on terror is only based in Afganistan? Why? Are you saying that this is where the only terrorists live? Are you saying that all of the attacks all around that killed Americans are all based out of Afganistan? WOuld that mean Iran, Syria, Palestine, Libya, etc are all peaceful countries?

THE ORIGINAL reason for invasion was WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?
Do you know that was not the reason we went into Iraq? Do you know we were in Iraq before which the war was called Desert Storm? Are you aware why or how the war stopped? There was an agreement signed by Saddam and this agreement was suppose to be upheld by The waste of an organization called the U.N.. You see there were suppose to be these inspections taking place but guess what, they were stopped and disallowed by the Sadamm regime. Do you know what the U.N. did during the sanctions and agreement? They made illegal deals with Saddam under the Oil for Food program among other things such as weapons dealings. Yes this is true by countries who are not supporting us when needed which would of put an end to terrorism and shown the world will not tolerate it. It seems the USA does have very few friends or should I say Allies. These countries only ask for help and never give it. Too bad we could not see it back when they needed our help.
Anyway,
During the Clinton Administration, do you know what Bill did when Saddam discontinued the agreements? I will give you a hint--The same thing he did about Bin Laden.

Are you aware that all of these Democrats that are bashing the war in Iraq actually voted yes for it? Could it be this would be there plan to get into office considering they do everything against the administration? Do you honestly feel that the Democrats actions have done good for this country? Now with all this bashing and BS with the Democrats, what would happend if we actually win this war on terror? What does it mean to a Democrat who does nothing but not support what the President is trying to do? Is it possible the Democrats are actually happy that we seem to be losing this war? Did the Democrats get their first prize for it this past November? How far will they go to get in the White House?

sovereign nation has the right to determine its own form of government and we violated that????? Do you even know what sovereign means? Do you consider Iraq to be a sovereign country? How happy would you be if you lived there? Would you say you would be happy to live there before or after Saddam if in fact you did live there?

Do you think a lot of Americans died in Iraq because of this war? Do you know or are you aware that the numbers of deaths for a war are actually extremely good? Are you aware that the death rate of Americans due to terrorism are still higher than the deaths from the Mid East wars? The death rates of Americans while we were not at war. How do you explain that or what is your solution?

Civil War? Do you know what happened in America after how civil war? Are you aware that there are other countries interfering such as Iran to start what they are calling a Civil war? Do you know that Iran has been funding terrorisists in Iraq and if so why would they do that? Do you think it is because they just hate America or is peace in the middle east bad for them and other neighboring countries. What woud you do to Iran knowing they are getting involved? If you were President, what would be your action toward Iran or Syria?

I am curious to ask you. Who do you think would live longer in peace? Lets say you have 4 groups of 100 people. One group is full of hatred and terror, another group is full of liberals who think war is never needed and wrong because it goes against peace. The other two groups have the same purpose that is help the groups when needed, Build a strong Military, and be among the most powerful in the groups.

I would like you to answer this question along with which group you would be part of if you had the choice.

As far as all of your comments, you honestly have no right regardless of constitution to talk about the current Administration. Your opinions are based off of complete ignorance as much as I hate to use that word against you. Not one thing you said is true or means anything but based on fasle information that you and too many others following. Gee, I wonder where you people are hearing it as you are brain washed by the media. I apologize for this seeming a bit harsh but I hope you actually look up what I am saying. Look at your privacy during the Clinton administration and look at how many Americans died due to terrorism post 9/12. If you understood what I was saying you to would get extremely angered by the constant BS that gets spreaded all around from people that do not have all of the facts. Speaking of facts, please do not think I think I have all of them. The difference is that I refuse to be the one talking and blaming the wrong people for our countries problems. Bottom line is the word ignorance does take part of this mess.

[Mad Fox]

Biggs, I would like to answer the many questions you had, but there are only so many hours in the day.

Basically, I am going to try and sum up in a few short paragraphs my general response to your questions. BTW you cant just respond with questions. try using declaritive sentences not interrogative.

Yes, I do think there was a better peace in Iraq before the American invasion and occupation. Although Saddam was a tyrant, I think that then you knew who to fear. But now because of this war there is a civil war and no one has a clue who is an enemy and who is a friend. And in any arguement about the justification of something a person can not use current events to justify past actions. We were lied to there was no WMD and when the inspectors were touring Iraq they could not find weapond. Inspector Ritter has been quoted many times as saying that Iraq did not possess the technology to create or maintain nuclear or biological weapons. And please excuse me could it be explained why Desert Storm was brought up? It is seemingly irrelevant to the current discussion, other than a refernce to a past conflict?

Yes, I do believe that Afghanistan is the only Just( based in fact) war. Although, Syria, Iran, Palestine, and Lebanon may have groups that are ideologically driven by radical islam it is within their rights to exist. As a sovereign nation ourselves , we can not and should not interfere in other nations sovereign affairs until our soveignty has been violated directly by a group from within or a that nation itself.

When refering to the Democrats and now many Republicans turn against the war, please remember that they were given inaccurate and ill based intellegence. And please dont say that the President was given the same faulty intellegence because he wasn't. The administration knew that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. They were not buying yellow cake uranium from africa. Ambassador wilson wrote an editorial about it saying that being an ambassador in the region he had expierence and that Iraq did not have the capacity to create weapons. After this the White House revealed that his wife Valarie Plame was a CIA agent. Ruining both of their lives. Sounds fishy?

Bigg dont insult my intellegence by asking me what sovereign means. Yes Iraq was a sovereign nations. It had control over its domestic affairs. Would I have liked to live there? No. But it is up to the citizens of Iraq to change there own government. John Locke the great philosopher says that when a people's government has failed them it is within there rights to change it. Funny he doesn't mention another nation? And if you asked me today if Iraq was sovereign I would firmly declare that it is not . As an occupier we are impeding the Iraqi's ability to control their won domestic affairs.

A death is a death and for every family that has lost a son daughter, brother, mother, or family member the war is already too costly. To you those soldiers may just be a number but to somebody they were everything. So I dare say you minimized thier life by saying that the numbers are "good". My solution is to get out of there and and bring them home once the Iraqi are able to adequately control their own domestic affairs.

In regards to your civil war comment the Americna Civil war was brought about by sectionalism, states rights, secession and slavery. Not a foreign invader. So that comparison is not really relavant to our discussion. And if I was President I would use diplomacy to deal with Iran and Syria. It worked in Libiya with Kodaffi.


AND BTW THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION GUARANTEES ME THE RIGHT TO MAKE ANY COMMENT I WANT AND DO NOT EVER FORGET THAT. It's your right too.

[ME BIGGD01]

First, I would like to respond to your rather insulting response to Mad Fox. You said that you didn't mean to be too harsh, but not to make waves, you were!

No S, they were harsh as I said they were but I did not want him to take it as I was attacking him or have some sort of hatred for him. It was not completely regarding just him but the people that do what he has done without the truth.

Second, I would like to discuss your reasoning behind your arguments. That is if you can really consider that an argument given the fact that all you did was ask questions. You yourself didn't even have any real facts to back up your arguments. To quote "Who and where did you get that information?" Where do you get the right to go off on someone when you yourself don't have anything to back up your own thoughts?

It may be hard for you to understand but the answer was in my questions. The purpose of what I did was not to be the same and actually expect anyone to look it up themself. I am sure anyone with an average I.Q. would undersatnd that (sarcasm). As far as the Who and where did you get that information comment, I want to make sure I know what he was talking about. Considering I did not get that information I could not talk about it. As for not backing up what i said, go back to the I.Q. comment. Look up the information yourself. If you can not find it, I will say look to see if it is the same section you got that bush was the person who allowed this act against our constitution. If you still can find it come back and I will point it out. A little research is all I am asking so people who feel the need to bash someone does have the actual truth instead of spreading false statements. You really need to stop trying to sound intelligent because you are making no sense.

As to your theory on peace, I must say it is actually quite liberal! Using violence to fight violence, an interesting and rather foolish approach to foreign policy. Ever heard of the theory of the spiral of violence? One violent act leads to another which leads to another and so on. The violence continues to get worse and never stops. Our “noble leader” has led this country into an era of international violence that will never cease.

Reread what I posted. Your kind makes no sense. You people are not realistic and would be executed any time during war. Your view on achieving peace is not realistic. I made several points about this but your kind are too arrogant to understand it. Go to my last group questions and answer them. Again the answer is in the question.

You seem to have a very narrow-minded view on the issues you have discussed. You talk about Democrats being the brain-washed group when in fact you too have been brain-washed. Apparently you think that the current administration is the best thing since sliced bread. Not to be rude, but in that respect you are wrong. Check the latest polls. Bush is down to a 35% approval rating. That is a cold, hard fact. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

I have never said the Democrats were brainwashed. You are typical avoiding the truth. It is the Americans that get brainwashed from the media. The Democrats are the ones that spread false information so the ignorant like yourself go around talking about someting you know nothing about. Your kind go around and talk and bitch without knowing the truth then someone else ignorant listens to your kind and then thinks they know something. Get the pattern here? This is why I did not go and spew nonsense but rather gave the chance for someone to look it up for themself. I mean if someone can say everything that MadFox has said, the question should be where did he get that information. Let's say I am wrong and everything I said is false, how would I know what Fox said was correct. What is his source of information or how did he learn what he said? I know I am right by the way but if you took the time to research what I said you would know that instead of getting a phone call to try to help with this subject.

As for me thinking I think this current administration is the greatest, you have no understanding of me. I hate all of the US government. The person who phone you should of filled you in on me. The difference is I am not ignorant enough to go blaming one administration for Americas problems. You have no idea about me or what I stand for. I am a realist and not a dreamer. Your kind think that peace is cheap. I pray for the American soldiers that died for this country and other countries that prove my point. Wake the F up and get with reality. Stick your polls where they sun Don't Shine. Again your ignorance is blinding as you relate truth to a poll. I can not understand why you would mention any poll considering I mentioned how bias the media was. Duh, you just proved my brainwashed theory.


P.S. It’s post 9/11, not post 9/12. Thanks![/quote]

Again, you are wrong and trying to correct what I was saying instead of looking at what is said. Your kind has this habit which is why I use the word ignorant. I said post 9/12 because I wanted Fox to count the deaths of those killed by terror. Again you make no mention of that but you tried to be one up instead of sticking to the facts or understanding truth. Your kind are too ignorant to understand anything but too busy spreading false information. If your kind would shut up and learn something you may understand what other people are saying. You probably did not even get my message in its entire but I expect that from your kind. Your kind are to busy trying to be right instead of learning the truth.


As for your pipe, you can stick it up your arse and no thanks:thumbs:

[ME BIGGD01]

Biggs, I would like to answer the many questions you had, but there are only so many hours in the day.

Basically, I am going to try and sum up in a few short paragraphs my general response to your questions. BTW you cant just respond with questions. try using declaritive sentences not interrogative.

Like I said to your friend, look it up and you may learn something like the facts!!! I am not the person posting on any forum passing along false information or wrong blame. If you are going to complain, know the truth.

Yes, I do think there was a better peace in Iraq before the American invasion and occupation. Although Saddam was a tyrant, I think that then you knew who to fear. But now because of this war there is a civil war and no one has a clue who is an enemy and who is a friend. And in any arguement about the justification of something a person can not use current events to justify past actions. We were lied to there was no WMD and when the inspectors were touring Iraq they could not find weapond. Inspector Ritter has been quoted many times as saying that Iraq did not possess the technology to create or maintain nuclear or biological weapons. And please excuse me could it be explained why Desert Storm was brought up? It is seemingly irrelevant to the current discussion, other than a refernce to a past conflict?

A better peace? You now have levels of peace? That’s an odd statement. So since Hitler was a Tyrant also should we have left him alone because everyone knew to fear him. Another odd statement. As for the civil war, again look into American history. Again you fail to understand it is other countries interfering causing the problems. As far as the inspections, go, the inspectors were not allowed to inspect. Iraqi’s could of hidden the weapons. For all we know they could still be hidden. Again this information was processed by not Bush but the informants. This information was passed to all those who voted which you fail to understand. It was not just Bush’s decision as even John Kerry and other Democrats vote Yea for the war. As far as bringing up Desert Storm, I can not believe you questioned why I brought it up. What the hell is the matter with you? Did you not understand why I brought it up and did not explain the reason or right in the justification of this war? Again, it was not just WMD.


Yes, I do believe that Afghanistan is the only Just( based in fact) war. Although, Syria, Iran, Palestine, and Lebanon may have groups that are ideologically driven by radical islam it is within their rights to exist. As a sovereign nation ourselves , we can not and should not interfere in other nations sovereign affairs until our soveignty has been violated directly by a group from within or a that nation itself.

Well your opinion is fine as I can not argue but what is confusing is that you contradict yourself. Again do you understand what that word means? You say we can not and should not interfere but any country that attacks our allies and us is reason to go to war. All the nations you mentioned are terrorist nations ruled by terrorist Governments. They have a right to exist but they do not have a right to kill innocent people.


When refering to the Democrats and now many Republicans turn against the war, please remember that they were given inaccurate and ill based intellegence. And please dont say that the President was given the same faulty intellegence because he wasn't. The administration knew that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. They were not buying yellow cake uranium from africa. Ambassador wilson wrote an editorial about it saying that being an ambassador in the region he had expierence and that Iraq did not have the capacity to create weapons. After this the White House revealed that his wife Valarie Plame was a CIA agent. Ruining both of their lives. Sounds fishy?

Yes it seems they were given wrong information but can you tell me why the Democrats do not take any blame for voting yes to go to war? Don’t act as if you know what Iraq was buying because you make no mention to facts. Nobodyknows the dealings so how can you say anything you have no knowledge of? What were you a fly on the wall? As for the White House leaking the information, again you know nothing and again just guess to blame.



Bigg dont insult my intellegence by asking me what sovereign means. Yes Iraq was a sovereign nations. It had control over its domestic affairs. Would I have liked to live there? No. But it is up to the citizens of Iraq to change there own government. John Locke the great philosopher says that when a people's government has failed them it is within there rights to change it. Funny he doesn't mention another nation? And if you asked me today if Iraq was sovereign I would firmly declare that it is not . As an occupier we are impeding the Iraqi's ability to control their won domestic affairs.

You are nuts!!!! You can taste Vanilla ice cream with your eyes closed and swear it was chocolate but the facts are facts!!!
You quote someone but it does not reflect reality. Do you know that many Germans did not agree with Hitler? I guess John Locke knew better though right? I mean those people should of overthrown Hitler.



A death is a death and for every family that has lost a son daughter, brother, mother, or family member the war is already too costly. To you those soldiers may just be a number but to somebody they were everything. So I dare say you minimized thier life by saying that the numbers are "good". My solution is to get out of there and and bring them home once the Iraqi are able to adequately control their own domestic affairs.

To me any soldier is not a number. You forget it is your kind just counting them dead instead of what they are doing. Because you are not intelligent enough to understand the price for freedom and what it takes, you have forgotten what America stands for. As for your solution, that is exactly what the Administration is trying to do. What you fail to realize is that there are other countries interfering with this concept of peace. Because of that we need to Win this War. I can never understand how you people think this problem which has been ignored all through the Clinton administration can be just forgotten. Do you people understand exactly what this enemy intends to do? Do you think they will stop? I think they need to be stopped and that is what we are doing. Down the road this war will get tougher but if it gets ignored you can bet these people will be doing far worst attacks on us then 9/11.

In regards to your civil war comment the Americna Civil war was brought about by sectionalism, states rights, secession and slavery. Not a foreign invader. So that comparison is not really relavant to our discussion. And if I was President I would use diplomacy to deal with Iran and Syria. It worked in Libiya with Kodaffi.

Diplomacy? Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! When will you people understand that is not an option. These people do not accept diplomacy. Look at Israel and Palestine. These Muslims are fanatics and only understand death. If you became president I would have to shoot you myself. I am sorry but I have to stop trying to be nice with you because you are a fruit cake and are delusional. What is in your drinking water in Massachusetts? Most of you people are so unrealistic and almost un-American. Because you are too dumb to understand the relevance does not make irrelevant. I just want you to know that if anyone called us a foreign invader in front of me I would foreign invade my boot in their ass.


AND BTW THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION GUARANTEES ME THE RIGHT TO MAKE ANY COMMENT I WANT AND DO NOT EVER FORGET THAT. It's your right too.

Please do not ever talk about the constitution to me. I know more about it then you will ever understand. I will say because you have that right, it does not make it right to be ignorant.

Please next time you call someone to post something here, find someone who actually may know something. That was pretty pathetic and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[Sirc]

:watchmovi

[Mad Fox]

So since Hitler was a Tyrant also should we have left him alone because everyone knew to fear him. Another odd statement. As for the civil war, again look into American history. Again you fail to understand it is other countries interfering causing the problems. As far as the inspections, go, the inspectors were not allowed to inspect. Iraqi’s could of hidden the weapons.

Hitler is a totally irrelvant. WWII can not even be brought up in the same breath as the war in Iraq. Iraq never attacked the United States of America. During the Second World war we were attacked. If the Japanese hadnt attacked I dare say we may have never enter the war ( but that is for people with PhD in history to decide.) And dont spred the misinformation that Saddam had any part in the first bombing of the World trade Centers. The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, El Sayyid Nosair, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Ahmad Ajaj, and Abdul Rahman Yasin. They received financing from al-Qaeda member Khaled Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle. Could you please provide a historical reference to the lack of inspects because I seem to think that they were allowed there the majority of the time. I provieded you with Ritter.

All the nations you mentioned are terrorist nations ruled by terrorist Governments. Could you please define what a terrorist government is? I am starting to believe that by the defination that is infered in your post the American government may have one. Considering that we diposed Salvador Allende in Chile, tried to dispose Castro for the last 50 years, and supporting anti government rebells in Columbia, and El Salvador. Thats just in our own hemisphere. Biggs I am unsure of what your degree is in but look at history from another perspective and look at American history we are no more righteous than the British, French, or Japanese. granted are ideals are great but they havent always been followed.

Don’t act as if you know what Iraq was buying because you make no mention to facts. for Information on that search Joe wilson's editorial, Valiere Plame's testimony in the Scooter Li bby Indictiment, and I can't remember his name but a MI6 agent that released the Downing Street memo. You will be surprised.

I guess John Locke knew better though right? I mean those people should of overthrown Hitler. Like I said WWII not even going there. But to insult John Locke a great Enlightenment thinker who our founding fathers admired as a great thinker and a man whose ideals about democracy were so great that they themselves modeled our government around is just plain wrong. To throw away such important ideals would really be disregarding our past as a democratic and free nations. Be careful what you throw away.

Because you are not intelligent enough to understand the price for freedom and what it takes, you have forgotten what America stands for I know the price of freedom and it is human lives. But considering that America's freedom was not threatened by Iraq I think it is unimaginable to send people into harms way. and Biggs I am not sure what you think America stands for but listen here it certainly doen't stand for narrow mindedness, anti constitutionalism, or miltarism.

Diplomacy? Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! When will you people understand that is not an option. It should be the first option. Not the last. It appears that this administrations seem to believe the opposite.

Please do not ever talk about the constitution to me. I know more about it then you will ever understand. I highly doubt that. I am getting a degree in American Political theory and 20th century American History. I live and breath our founding documents.

Please next time you call someone to post something here, find someone who actually may know something. That was pretty pathetic and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. actually Biggs I dont know this person. But I sure would like to. Seems pretty radical. I liked it. Btw MadMazda did I ever meet you on a Wolf server. I think the name sound familiar. I wolf servers i go by just FOX