Healthcare

[Mr Clean]

Someone said in a post last week that they thought healthcare was a much more important topic than whatever was being discussed at the time. I was curious what everyone's opinion was on this topic...

[Sirc]

Someone said in a post last week that they thought healthcare was a much more important topic than whatever was being discussed at the time. I was curious what everyone's opinion was on this topic...

Hmmm, let's see what was being discussed last week...

http://gamemecca.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81273


Yeah, I think healthcare may be more important. What do you guys think?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? :D

[Nitro]

hahaha

[Goober]

I'm of the opinion that changes need to be made but not in the direction that most folks think.
1. Insurance should be for large medical expenses like emergancy room visits and major surgery.
2. Emergency room visits should be for emergencies, not colds or other things like that. This causes insurance rates to rise. A normal doctor visit is $75 an emergency room is $580-$700. I for one don't want my insurance company paying this kind of money out for someone that has a cold or flu. There are plenty of night and weekend clinics out there.
3. Normal doctor visits should be out of pocket. Folks think that because they pay a little out of their paycheck each month insurance that everything should be free.
My daughter works for a hospital in the materials section. She sees what is charged for different things like meds, bandages and such. The markup on these things is a lot higher than you can imagine to make up for the amount of folks that can't pay for services
I DO NOT believe in socialized medicine at all, but there needs to be a safety net for those that can't afford care.

[ME BIGGD01]

Mr Clean, I am guilty for not paying much attention to the issue until I had to. It as far more serious than many think. I look at how much I am paying in the past few years (OVER 1200 A MONTH ALONG WITH CO PAYS FOR PRESCRIPTIONS AND DOCTORS VISITS WHICH COMES TO ABOUT 400 EXTRA A MONTH.) since my wife has become sick and I will tell you it is crippling. I am grateful that I have been able to keep up but it takes away from other things anY American family should be able to do with their money. Besides that I just cannot imagine how families that can not afford it or have it worste do it. This is not what America should be like.
Today we have serious problems that the majority of Americans just simply ignore. Things I have always went off here at GM where it must seem I am just nuts. The simple fact is that since many things get ignored and people do nothing about it, we are destined to fail across the board. I have come to terms with no matter how much it frustrates me we have people in this country that are more interested in everyone else but the actual Americans.

When we discuss Health Care we need not focus just on health care. There is more problems that reflect to this issue. We need to address all issues and stop thinking its just one problem. Things like calculating all the illegals that get free hospitalization etc. Who is paying for that and why is that money being used for illegals?

We can address Insurance as well but what about all the companys laying off good working americans to move the jobs to countries that do not require beneifits or other things needed to be able to live in America and raise a family. We can not also forget the companies that just hire illegals to work at cheap wages with no benefits and then be told that they are doing jobs that no american wants to do.

The truth is we need to stop labeling each issue as a problem and look to see where all of the problems are coming from.

The current government in America needs to be careful because they consitently worry about some sand****** with a bomb strapped to themself instead of doing whats right for the true Americans. They should worry about what is going on in America always first because the more America becomes unstable there are people or groups ready to put a stop to this decline at all costs. And the fact is these people will be true Americans fighting for America no matter how much they will be called terrorists. The fact is that when one dies the death is for our country because the fight is for America. Ofcourse people cannot see this happen but that is where they lose and the fight and thos liberal fools who want to give every thing my/our ancestors fought for will be killed slowly but quickly along with all the other enemies to America. These groups are out there and they are hidden ready to take back America before the people who gave it away and sold us out. I look forward to this war because it sickens me what America has become. Then all the liberal assholes who talk about peace can realize what peace costed those Americans that died for it already and those that will die for it again. I will be right there on the front line when the time comes and collecting heads.

[Caged Anger]

I dunno, it seems rather funny that we have the best medical care in the world available to us but the payment system seems royally screwed up :D

[Mr Clean]

First off, let me state that health care is not a right. No matter how you twist and turn the Constitution you aren't guaranteed healthcare.

I think it is ironic that healthcare for workers was the idea of businesses, as a way to attract and retain employees. Now people act like they are entitled to employer-paid benefits, even if they make 6 bucks an hour.

Now, having said that, it would certainly be nice if everyone could have some kind of access to doctors and so forth. Other countries have that of course, and they pay for it dearly (in more ways than one). It would probably mean the end in the U.S. to any real medical research and a serious decline in the development of new drugs and technologies however.

In states like New Jersey they have forced companies with a certain number of employees to offer health benefits. Why in the hell is it the responsiblity of a company to offer people healthcare? What a joke...

This issue is just part of the bigger problem of Americans wanting more and more handed to them. I wish we as a country would stop counting on the federal government so much...

[ME BIGGD01]

Mr Clean are you ****ing kidding me? How about the federal goverment stop counting on me. It's the federal gov that is ****ing everything up. As far as companies offering healthcare they either do or they dont. Most people will choose a company with health insurance or they would not work for that company. Then that company would go out of business because anyone with a half of brain knows how expensive it to have insurance. I dont get where you are coming from. Who the hell sticks up for the federal government? How about this, I don't pay taxes and the feds can kiss my ass. Besides it's not like a white guy like me will get any of my money back for what I put into the system. I think you have the facts wrong. I think your argument would be better off against illegals not tax paying citizens.

[Mad Fox]

Mr Clean are you ****ing kidding me? How about the federal goverment stop counting on me. It's the federal gov that is ****ing everything up. As far as companies offering healthcare they either do or they dont. Most people will choose a company with health insurance or they would not work for that company. Then that company would go out of business because anyone with a half of brain knows how expensive it to have insurance. I dont get where you are coming from. Who the hell sticks up for the federal government? How about this, I don't pay taxes and the feds can kiss my ass. Besides it's not like a white guy like me will get any of my money back for what I put into the system. I think you have the facts wrong. I think your argument would be better off against illegals not tax paying citizens.


I think that this may be the first time we actually almost agree. I think that paying taxes entitles everyone to healthcare. But I disagree with you on the fact that the federal government should take care of healthcare. I think rather it is the responsibility of the states. In a compromise the best solution would be to have helthcare costs up until a certain dollar amount be tax deductible and then after that amount have it subsides for certain nesscary medical expenses whatever they may be deemed. And for major expenses a process that would allow people to petition for government aid.


It is alsolutely riduclous to think that people are dying each day because of inadequate healthcare. Government has a responsibility to ensure the well being of its citizens.

[Bingo]

This is always a hot-button issue and in my opinion it's one of the single most convoluted issues out there.

As someone who has made my living in the healthcare system for many years, I'm obviously grateful we have the sort of system we do. However, I do also feel it's screwed up in extremely intricate ways.

On the one hand, we have the single best healthcare system in the world. Look at the amazing things we are able to do to both improve and prolong lives. The advances we make every year are astonishing.

One of the more personal ways I've seen this is also very stupid but it strikes home to me. When I was a kid I had a tumor in my throat that had to be removed. I have a scar going across my neck that damn near looks like I had my head nearly chopped off. It wasn't that anything was done wrong, it's simply what had to be done to safely get into my throat to cut this thing out. A few months ago I ran into someone that had the same exact surgery done for the same thing. Her scar is about an inch long and even when she was pointing it out you could barely see it. How freakin amazing is that??? What was once major surgery is now an overnight stay. Heck look at what's being done with knee replacement surgery! People are out of the hospital in 48 hours. After having thier entire knee cut out and replaced for cripes sake!

However, costs are obviously where the issue lies. What exactly are people entitled to? The big problem here is that no matter what happens it's going to come down to someone somewhere making an aribtrary decision on where to draw the line between what someone is entitled to and what they aren't. That means someone else is going to disagree with that line. There's no way around that. So now we've already pissed people off. Consider this:
1) Person 1 needs an operation or he will never be able to walk again. He has insurance. Is he entitled to that operation?
2) Person 2 has chronic pain in his lower back. He cannot walk without pain. His doctor prescribes a session with a massauer twice a week to ease the pain. He has insurance. Is he entitled to those massages?
3) Person 3 has a degenerated disk in his back. His doctor prescribes a custom orthopedic mattress for him as he cannot get comfortable on a regular mattress. He has insurance. Is he entitled to that mattress?
4) A married couple does not have insurance. The husband was laid off from his job and has been unable to find work. They cannot afford private pay insurance, especially as the wife is pregant. The baby is born premature and has significant heart and lung damage. The baby will require several operations and weeks in the hospital, followed up by weeks of at home care. Are they entitled to care for this child?

In my opinion there is one issue that is the single largest factor in our skyrocketing costs: Lawyers. To be fair, it should be: Lawyers and people looking at lawsuits as a second lottery system.

Should a set of bone screws and a plate to fix a broken limb really cost in the thousands of dollars? I mean cost to the facility not retail cost. Heck no. But the few times one has gone bad and the manufacturer gets sued for millions and millions of dollars does increase the cost.

Should a pair of aluminium crutches really cost 50 bucks? Hell no. It's most likely less than 50 cents worth of aluminum. But you can damn sure bet the first time a set collapses the vendor will be sued for millions.

Should malpractice insurance really cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per doctor per year? Hell no. But the few times some insurance company has to pay out a 150 million dollar settlement drives everyone elses costs up.

People are suing over the smallest perceived slight. And god forbid some doctor actually just make an accident. Yes they should be held to a standard of perfection, but when the tiniest little thing goes wrong so many people jump up and see millions of dollars coming thier way.

To me, that's the single largest increase in our cost - the legal fees. Add in the occasional con artist doctor, insurance agent or whatever and it just gets compounded.

Then you add in the cost of care for those who cannot pay and it gets worse. Of course illegal aliens are a huge factor in this. This is an extreme burden on facilites all across the country.

It's a great system we have, but it does need work. I just can't fathom how to go about working on it.

B

[Mr Clean]

Bigg, I am a Constitutionalist. The Constitution does not give the federal government the authority to set up and manage a national healthcare system, period. Fox is right that states can (IF it is something allowed in their state constitution of course) although I doubt that any of them will try to tackle such a topic. For that matter, programs like Social Security are also unconstitutional, and were ruled as such by the Supreme Court many times until FDR threatened to appoint as many as 17 Supreme Court Justices to the bench until he had a majority that would do his bidding. There was NEVER a legal precedent for allowing SS to be created.

But I digress. The Constitution gives you the right to pursue happiness, not to achieve it. Paying taxes allows the federal government to carry out the duties it is charged with by the Constitution, nothing more. If you want the RIGHT to healthcare, amend the Constitution! If there really are as many people as there seems to be that want free healthcare, then getting 37 of the 50 states to ratify that amendment should not be a problem.

In the mean time, the points about lawsuits and insurance premiums being largely to blame are very true. But I have no clue how to stop that from happening...Also illegals are a big drain on the healthcare system...and we all know exactly how to stop that.

But people aren't dying everyday because they don't have a healthcare plan. By law emergency rooms have to take you if you have something life threatenting. There are far more deaths by people driving their cars every year...

Side notes:

Fox, most states already have some kind of tax deductions available for health care costs, as does the IRS. Usually it is opposite of what you propose though: Anything you have paid over a certain percentage of your income to healthcare costs is a deduction to your tax bill. I am not a tax professional so consult someone who is to get the details on what you need for documentation and what can be included in that.

Bingo, given the price of aluminum these days 50 bucks for a pair of crutches doesn't sound bad at all...

[Nitro]

Bigg, I am a Constitutionalist.

I literally spit out hot coffee when I read this. Please, I beg you, tell me you were honestly joking...

[ME BIGGD01]

Mr Clean, I am not sure where the federal Government was considered to take over the health care situation and yes it is not a constitutional right. The way you said it was mind blowing to say the least though. To be honest it does not matter which part of gov takes over and changes things but regardless neither are doing anything to fix the situation. Again what is the situation?

You mentioned a company should not have to offer healthcare and in most cases they don't. Can you imagine all companies doing that?

As far as constitution goes, paying the taxes we pay is unconstitutional. I beleive we need taxes for services rendered but I do not beleive the majority of taxes are legit. I should not have to pay for something I will never receive. I think an option to choose should be there. I would opt out for paying for anything that other people get help such as welfare. I know I will never go on it and even if I needed it I would not get it unless I sold house etc. The system is broken and the hard working people fit the bill. That is not freedom and that is not in the constitution.

AS far as what Bingo said
You are exactly right about the law suits and it causes a major problem because the doctors need to have tons of insurance. This is a catch 22 though because regardless you have doctors making millions a year.

Do we cut out the ability to penalize the doctors who screw up? I think that would be unwise because I have seen it first hand that there are doctors out there that not only deserve to be sued but to be stomped on with a 14" boot across their skull. We know they are human and everyone makes a mistke but if protocol was followed then it should be reviewed.

I agree with your post so much but what is the solution because there are good and bad doctors. We already know that the majority of people are scum and look to get rich. You dont know how many people told my wife and I to sue for some of the dealings we went through before we found out that my wife was sick. I am not a get rich scheme kind of guy but I do believe a penalty should be given for those treating my wife. I guess in reality I have to stick to a plain old ass kicking which suits me fine as my frustration and pain is felt with in a specific doctors bones as they break.

As far as technology goes it comes with your insurance plan. The better your insurance the better the treatment. I am stuck with with this monthly fee not because I can not find a better or cheaper plan. The truth is I do not want to change anything because the doctors we have now taking care of my wife are pretty good. Can not chance going out of network which may cause problems. I am pleased with the surgery that the spine specialist did on my wife almost 2 years ago. I had faith in the guy because he was the only one that saw something wrong when my wife was being treated for muscle pulls. It sickens me to think of the past and how everything went down almost to the point I want to kill each doctor that received a check from the insurance company without doing there job and could of killed my wife or paralyded her. I see no excuse considering the field they are in. I probably could of sued and that I feel would of been a good reason. Taking their ability to be punished away I can not see as a good thing. Maybe a 3 strikes and your flipping burgers for the rest of your life is more suitable instead of making someone rich from a law suit.

I will also mention that that surgery done November 16, 2005 cost the insurance company close to 1 million dollars. I saw one bill for 400,000 and others smaller. Do I think it was worth it? Well yeah because wife is still around and able to move. Things are not the same but she can move and my daughter still has a mommy.

with that I would say that the governement of America needs to take over the entire countries insurance plans from auto to health. It needs to be regulated with new laws. I do not think there is a problem with the doctors or hospitals other than a few idiots but the insurance is what cripples and the cancer of America.

[ME BIGGD01]

"But people aren't dying everyday because they don't have a healthcare plan."

This is not accurate. As Imentioned in previous post the beetre the plan the better the care. This does not have anything to do with emergency visit.

[Mad Fox]

Bigg, I am a Constitutionalist. The Constitution does not give the federal government the authority to set up and manage a national healthcare system, period. Fox is right that states can (IF it is something allowed in their state constitution of course) although I doubt that any of them will try to tackle such a topic. For that matter, programs like Social Security are also unconstitutional, and were ruled as such by the Supreme Court many times until FDR threatened to appoint as many as 17 Supreme Court Justices to the bench until he had a majority that would do his bidding. There was NEVER a legal precedent for allowing SS to be created.

But I digress. The Constitution gives you the right to pursue happiness, not to achieve it. Paying taxes allows the federal government to carry out the duties it is charged with by the Constitution, nothing more. If you want the RIGHT to healthcare, amend the Constitution! If there really are as many people as there seems to be that want free healthcare, then getting 37 of the 50 states to ratify that amendment should not be a problem.

In the mean time, the points about lawsuits and insurance premiums being largely to blame are very true. But I have no clue how to stop that from happening...Also illegals are a big drain on the healthcare system...and we all know exactly how to stop that.

But people aren't dying everyday because they don't have a healthcare plan. By law emergency rooms have to take you if you have something life threatenting. There are far more deaths by people driving their cars every year...

Side notes:

Fox, most states already have some kind of tax deductions available for health care costs, as does the IRS. Usually it is opposite of what you propose though: Anything you have paid over a certain percentage of your income to healthcare costs is a deduction to your tax bill. I am not a tax professional so consult someone who is to get the details on what you need for documentation and what can be included in that.

Bingo, given the price of aluminum these days 50 bucks for a pair of crutches doesn't sound bad at all...


Massachusetts, New York, and Vermoont have some of the best "almost universal" healthcare plan. everyone has to be insured. and if you cant afford it the state will kick in

[Nitro]

I'm with Biggs 100% on this one

[Mr Clean]

I literally spit out hot coffee when I read this. Please, I beg you, tell me you were honestly joking...

Nope. I wasn't. I'm curious why you spit out the coffee though....

[Mr Clean]

Mr Clean, I am not sure where the federal Government was considered to take over the health care situation and yes it is not a constitutional right. The way you said it was mind blowing to say the least though. To be honest it does not matter which part of gov takes over and changes things but regardless neither are doing anything to fix the situation. Again what is the situation?

Why is it the responsibilty of a government to fix the situation? Because it needs fixing? It isn't their job, per the Constitution.



You mentioned a company should not have to offer healthcare and in most cases they don't. Can you imagine all companies doing that?

That is the way it used to be Bigg. Is was the companies that came up with the idea in the first place as a recruitment and retainment tool. Just because they invented the idea doesn't mean we should MAKE them continue it when it becomes cost-prohibitive.


As far as constitution goes, paying the taxes we pay is unconstitutional. I beleive we need taxes for services rendered but I do not beleive the majority of taxes are legit. I should not have to pay for something I will never receive. I think an option to choose should be there. I would opt out for paying for anything that other people get help such as welfare. I know I will never go on it and even if I needed it I would not get it unless I sold house etc. The system is broken and the hard working people fit the bill. That is not freedom and that is not in the constitution.

The welfare state is unconstitutional, just like Social Security, so I don't feel it should be paid for with federal dollars either. I just want the feds to pay for the things that they are supposed to be doing (providing for the national defense, etc).

[Mr Clean]

Massachusetts, New York, and Vermoont have some of the best "almost universal" healthcare plan. everyone has to be insured. and if you cant afford it the state will kick in

The Mass plan is still receiving funds from Medicaid for the next two years in the amount of 365 million dollars. The Boston Globe said "State officials have said that the money, needed to subsidize coverage for low-income residents, is crucial to carrying out the ambitious new healthcare plan, which seeks to insure nearly all Massachusetts residents over the next several years" in a June 2006 article. No mention of how the state plans to close that funding gap the third year. Probably raise their already ridiculous tax base...

The Mass plan has HUGE deductibles for people that fall just above the limit for subsidized insurance. We are talking 5 or 10 grand here...who the hell has that kind of money in the bank?

These plans rely on private insurance companies which, as Bigg has pointed out, are the ones who have made all these increases over the past 20 years in the first damn place.

These plans fall incredibly short, and is exactly the kind of meddling that Americans should be afraid of. Instead of fixing the problem they are making it worse. Bravo, New England, for showing the rest of America what NOT to do...

[Pure_Evil]

The problem with suing Dr's is that they are human, most want to do a good job, but because of the system, they have to see as many patients as possible to cover their overhead, education, etc. Sure, if one screws up, people want them accountable, but they are humans, humans screw up. I work in a place where there is no room for error, I screw up, someone can die, and it could be the person I was just joking with a few minutes before. It's tough to work in a field with those responsabilities. Lawyers screwed things up in so many ways, fueling the greed.

For those who say we have the best medical care in the world, I say poop on you. I remember 7-8 years ago when my Ex wife wanted to have laser eye surgery. The cost in the USA was 6-7 grand, and the Dr had about 1 year experience. She drove 5 hrs into Canada, had the same surgery done for $1500.00. That included a hotel for the weekend and the Dr called her at home twice to make sure she was recovering well also following up with her eye Dr in CT. Medical care was affordable, the Dr gave a shit too, go figure. Also, the Dr had way more experience with the surgery too, because the government is quicker to approve new procedures, less red tape.

Greed as a whole is killing our country. Rich get richer, poor get poorer. The rich run our government too.

[Nitro]

Nope. I wasn't. I'm curious why you spit out the coffee though....

It was REALLY hot...like unbearably hot.