USA 2008 Presidency

[Pure_Evil]

Looks like the 2008 election is one of change, Dems offer up 1st black President, Republicans offer up the 1st female VP, The Green Party offers up the first black female President and 1st female VP.

Who would you choose?

[ME BIGGD01]

I don't want a person who was not even born in the country and who's family is from kenya running this country. Terrorist organized is Obama and has too many ties to people who hate the country. Biden even said Obama was not cut for the job but since he is now the chosen VP the tune has changed after Biden said McCain was the man for the job.

Green party is a vote taken away from either party. AGian I have to vote for a particular party to prevent someone worst running this counrty.

McCain has always went against the republican party yet they advertise him as being like Bush. It's completely false and any American can look that up along with really looking into what Osama really is all about. Too bad this country has people that are fat and lazy and to pathetic to do anything themself. You can ask any moron why they are voting for Obama and the usual answer is change. Change is a powerful word but again people would rather think it means for the better. Why Americans themself do not look deeper and question what and how this is going to happen and who is going to pay for these changes only makes me laugh. America deserves what they get!!!!

McCain is the man for the job. He has proven he cares for the country and has sacrafised many times in history proving so. McCains entire family has served America going all the way back to George Washington. Sorry but I am an American that refuses to be sold on marketing which I believe is the entire Democrat policy. They advertise change all the time as they did when they won over congress. You have to laugh at those results and I wish America would just wake the F up and be realistic to the times we live in and recall how peace was never given to any of us. It was a lot of fighting that caused the pease along with many lives from Americans and allies. It's hard to get anything done for any country when you have a party that divides the whole country and doing anything and everything to make an administration look bad. Until America wakes up we will continue to decline as a nation and be further divided.

I myself look back at everything I have said and posted here regarding things going on in the world. I have been insulted and called a maniac for many comments. Research what I have said and look at what is going on. I mentioned Russia, Iran etc and according to what I said has happened and is happening. People want change and peace but it takes all sides to want peace. Too bad it just does not happen that way as I have said about Germany and Japan. I am sure people wanted peace then too but being realistic we had to fight to end the wars.

[Pure_Evil]

John McCain wasn't born here? Because Obama was born in Honolulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu,_Hawaii), Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii), his mom is from Kansas......I'm surprised you did not know this.

"Barack's mother, Ann Dunham, grew up in small-town Kansas. Her father worked on oil rigs during the Depression, and then signed up for World War II after Pearl Harbor, where he marched across Europe in Patton's army. Her mother went to work on a bomber assembly line, and after the war, they studied on the G.I. Bill, bought a house through the Federal Housing Program, and moved west to Hawaii." Yup, baaad family :rolleyes:

[Wiper]

I think it's time to put terrorism on a lower point. The chances are still far bigger to die in a car accident than during an attack. These days elections are all about who has the last word in this subject. And I made a post about the freedom issue were many wars have been fought for and still are. We defend our freedom on that point yet we all forget our backdoor where freedom is taken from us in rapid speed. Just one reply on my RFID post and two PM's (people really need to wake up on this point :( ).

Reason I hope Obama wins is cuz he doesn't pull the "safety"-card on everything. I have the feeling his vision is much wider than (by my impression the far more conservative) McCain. Obama speaks about hope while McCain speaks about fear.

I know that if Obama wins he has a lot to prove and is very inexperienced though he's optimistic and that's what the USA needs (yet again in my opinion :D ). And if the USA is doing well Europe will automatically will run well also :thumbs:

[Pure_Evil]

terrorism kills the economy, not just people...............

[OUTLAWS Tip]

Obama's speech indicated he was going to solve every single problem in the United States with his "Changes". He also said no tax increase for 95% of the people. I find that very hard to believe. I guess that 5% is going to have to pay a billion a piece.
:hmmm:

[He Is Legend]

http://i34.tinypic.com/xawa6v.jpg

[FUS1ON]

Wiper to let our guard down on terrorism is stupid, there is a saying that goes like this "Those that forget the past are condemned to relive it".

[OUTLAWS WHOCARES]

At the end of the day they are both bad for the country. Any way you look at it they are both full of SHIT!!! Plain and simple. I think I would rather toss my vote down the toilet.

Frank Zappa For Prez

[Wiper]

Wiper to let our guard down on terrorism is stupid, there is a saying that goes like this "Those that forget the past are condemned to relive it".

Never said to let our guard down, it's just insane to think that the world is all about terrorism. Just check how much they speak about it and with every word they support the hole idea of terrorism which is fear :) It's time people see things in perspective.

What worries me more is how people (yes I'm saying it again not to offend you or anyone else) let their guard down for such thing as privacy and freedom where people (maybe even ur ancestors) died for and giving away in rapid speed cuz we fear terrorism...

As you might have noticed I think we ain't handle the anti-terrorism well unless some people of big influence push it that way ;)

[Wiper]

terrorism kills the economy, not just people...............

Terrified people kill the economy....

[He Is Legend]

Seriously, anyone that votes for Obama is straight up unintelligent

[Pure_Evil]

Seriously, anyone that votes for Obama is straight up unintelligent
:rolleyes: that about says it all

[Mad Fox]

Hillary '12

[EXEcution]

Seriously, anyone that votes for Obama is straight up unintelligent

By all means please enlighten us with your vast political insight...

As far as I'm concerned I don't expect much change from either candidate after being in office for a few years. The economy will naturally come out of a recession and either Obama or McCain will be praised for, well, not really doing anything.

I don't know much about what is happening in Iraq as of now and if the presence of U.S. troops there is doing more harm than good. The heathcare situation is being addressed by both Obama and McCain and in the long run we will see if it's for the better or for the worse.

Unless the country as a whole undergoes a massive change and some sort of social paradigm shift occurs then it's bound to be more of the same old, same old. This is, of course, based off of my personal experience when it comes to politics. Both McCain and Obama are very intelligent people who know how to play by the rules. The rules aren't going to change, and after the hype of the election is over... Well what are you expecting?

[SASQUATCH]

I read Obama and Mc Cain Biography and more. The other book I read that will help to give you an idea of what to expect worldwide is the book I read called ‘How The Great Powers Shape The World(A Century’s Journey)’ by Robert A Pastor. This is just one of many books but this book will give you an idea. Now just to clear a few things to some that might say I don’t have the time to read is bullsh*t because if you have time to spend hours f*cking playing games or jerking off it doesn’t take much to read 25 pages a day which you can do in 20 mins and finish the book in about two weeks. if you really do care so much by posting on this subject matter, then prepare to back it up and not make excuses.

I am sorry about being a bit hard but I grow tired of hearing people tell me that they don't have the time.

Public needs to consider reading up on them before you begin to vote. I think it’s necessary before voting and learn more about the candidates, that way it will provide much more vast information to get to know who we are voting for before making any judgment without doing your homework. You can’t always go by what the media chitchats, only because some of the networks are partial.

I will say that either one will not do the job because the economy is pretty much in deep and it will take more than two terms for any president to make a small dent on the economy for any improvement. Either one; will try their best to help improve the economy but the most essential part is to see it taking its form to improve the quality of life for the average American. It will depend on the majority of the committee to provide the support for either candidate. If Obama is elected; he would need the support of the committee and would hope be mostly Democratic for him to begin the plan for the coming years, and it applies to Mc Cain with his support for the Republican. The system isn’t perfect but there is hope for improvement for both sides that can provide what is needed in order to see any progress that is vital to this country in order to compete worldwide but with either side not communicating it will only slow the progress to accomplish what is needed for this country. It’s no longer about Democratic, Republicans or the third party, it’s about catching up worldwide in order to help our economy.

SAS-

[He Is Legend]

:rolleyes:

[Mad Fox]

I will not vote for a man who can not remember how many homes he has. That is called senility.

[Pure_Evil]

Awe come on Fox. look how good Regan did with it...

[FUS1ON]

That is pretty wacky that he couldn't or wouldn't give an exact number, geeez we are only talking about houses, stuff he ought to be able to answer in his sleep.

I'm impressed with Sarah Palin ... the rest, not so much.

[ME BIGGD01]

I will not vote for a man who can not remember how many homes he has. That is called senility.


That's retarded. He did not answer the question because it could have been wrong. Like this means anything? His wife is filthy wealthy and she owns the houses. The Democrats use anything but forget to ask how many houses each of them own or better how Obama got his mansion. I think you fail to mention those facts which IMO believe you probably don't even know what I am talking about.

[ME BIGGD01]

John McCain wasn't born here? Because Obama was born in Honolulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu,_Hawaii), Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii), his mom is from Kansas......I'm surprised you did not know this.

"Barack's mother, Ann Dunham, grew up in small-town Kansas. Her father worked on oil rigs during the Depression, and then signed up for World War II after Pearl Harbor, where he marched across Europe in Patton's army. Her mother went to work on a bomber assembly line, and after the war, they studied on the G.I. Bill, bought a house through the Federal Housing Program, and moved west to Hawaii." Yup, baaad family :rolleyes:


Pure, I am well aware of where McCain was born which is why I mention his family's military background. As far as Osama, I believe it's all BS and considering the entire story, I believe exactly what another Democrat believes and the reason he is suing.

Too many things about Obama that need to be added up and looked into. The people he deals with along with his history seems to scetchy. Ask anyone who is supporting Obama why they are voting for them. It's usual for lazy, ignorant Americans to believe the hype. Obama is nothing more than a coke commercial. He's nothing more but marketing to get votes. McCain is accused always as the same as Bush but that is untrue and many times have gone against him.

Sas, ever read Obama Nation?

[Nitro]

That is pretty wacky that he couldn't or wouldn't give an exact number, geeez we are only talking about houses, stuff he ought to be able to answer in his sleep.

I'm impressed with Sarah Palin ... the rest, not so much.

She's my kind of gal!

http://www.palmerelks.org/images/wwp-photo2.jpg

[Mad Fox]

She's my kind of gal!

http://www.palmerelks.org/images/wwp-photo2.jpg

Coldest State Hottest Governor

[Mad Fox]

Awe come on Fox. look how good Regan did with it...


He was an actor that was his profession so he could still save face. But Nancy did a good job running the country.

[Pure_Evil]

He was an actor that was his profession so he could still save face. But Nancy did a good job running the country.

she was a sports caster, I'm sure she can act a bit too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bza63nnqiKA&eurl=http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Republican-VP-candidate-Sarah-Palin-s-sportscast;_ylt=ApymLhbP1sLhS2ZQ

[Mad Fox]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26496189/


Palin's daughter unmarried and pregnant....hmmm.....

[FUS1ON]

Oh geeez like that is so uncommon these days ... besides that is her daughter and not her personally so I do not see how that can reflect badly on her. As a parent you try to teach your children the right things to do and hope that they make the right decisions in life but they still will come up short from time to time.

I see this as a non-issue.

[Pure_Evil]

No worse than the Bush daughters, only hotter :P

[ME BIGGD01]

Madfox, in ten years I want to see how you think. I mean by then I hope you will be supporting yourself and not have to rely on your parents to pay your way. And if you currently have a job it means nothing. I am talking about being solely responsible for everything. I laugh when I hear kids talk as they know so much.

[SASQUATCH]

Sas, ever read Obama Nation?

Biggs – To answer your question, yes and the The Case Against Barack Obama. . . I carry with me the Amazon Pad everywhere I go. heheheh.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama inexperienced in foreign policy and as for John McCain is "respectable," but perhaps not up to the task.



Also Foreign policy and affairs will play a major role in the years to come but will require someone up for the task.



I have not made up my mind who to vote but I don’t feel comfortable with Obama and the fact that he has been a senator since only 2004. I believe you need to earn your strips a lot longer to experience what’s going on at the senate and foreign policies.



What I plan to do next is looking into more on the third party candidates and then make my own decision when November comes.

[ME BIGGD01]

McCain is the better choice but I would have preferred another that was not chosen. What scares me is that there is a lot of things going on in the world that really needs experience.

Also Pure, is there away to see who voted and for whom? I would bet the people voting for Obama are not even american.

[Pure_Evil]

I could've set the poll up for that, but seeing the sensitivity of the topic and the eventual flames it will start, I chose to keep them hidden.

Now seeing that foreign policy is key, I personally would like foreign opinion cast, especially with the jerk off remark given by Sas, and I feel some countries are more educated about ours than many citizens that do vote.Judging buy what the present National governmnnt has done, they have a right to cast a opinion since the election will have a global effect, IMO

Sas, the 3rd party canadates are one of the weakest crops in many years, it's sad. I'm a Green party guy, but seeing our choice is pathetic.

As for experience, if you look at the parings, it's close, it comes down to who's in their cabinets, who's got their ear.

I used to like McCain, but his choice in Palin is dissapointing, even Quail would've have been better, I have serious doubts a mother of 5 can run the country and propperly raise the kids and apparently grandchild, might as well call it 6 kids. Obama is a lot of hype, speaks well when reading, but answering questions on the fly, the pollish comes right off, Biden helps but enough? Edwards would've been better, if he could've kept it in his pants...

[Mr Clean]

Ask Obama about William Ayers...

[Mad Fox]

O man that Sarah Palin get better and better, ethics investigation, the Alaskan Independence Party, her husband's drunk driving. She is the best thing to happen to the GOP in ages.

[BobtheCkroach]

O man that Sarah Palin get better and better, ethics investigation, the Alaskan Independence Party, her husband's drunk driving. She is the best thing to happen to the GOP in ages.

The personal crap needs to stay out of it. Having a 17 year old daughter carrying a child, while something I disagree with, isn't something she could have stopped, short of forcibly keeping her child locked up at home. She can educate her child, but ultimately that is a decision her daughter made on her own.

Her husband was busted for a DUI more than 20 years ago. There's no history of repeat behavior. There's no recent infractions. Good lord, he was 22 and he did something that 3/5 of Americans get busted for, and probably 4.5/5 of Americans have done at least once. How does affect her viability as a candidate in the least?

Obama has admitted to Marijuana and cocaine use, and said that he didn't try heroin because he didnt' like the guy trying to sell it to him. Better just shut that campaign down. In fact, Fox, you better turn off the TV and not worry about the election. Candidates apparently can't have every made a mistake, and last I checked, Jesus opted not to run this time around.

Now from what little i've read on the Alaskan Independence thing, as well as the ethics thing - those are both a bit concerning. I would love some more links/information on both if you have them, Fox. But give the ancient, personal attacks a rest, please.

[Mad Fox]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/02/1325127.aspx

[Mad Fox]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26501863/

From the sounds of it her Alaskan Independence stuff is still under scrutiny

[ME BIGGD01]

Ask Obama about William Ayers...


That's what I am talking about:thumbs:

[ME BIGGD01]

Fox, until it's proven then talk about it. Don't use BS from your liberal sources.

BoB, The attacks on Palin is the only thing the Democrats have. Nothing to worry or be concerned once you look at the sources. It's politics as usual and as a concervative I have to laugh at the Democrats tactics. The liberals will make up stuff and make someone guilty before they have been proven guilty ti make their party look better. One should look up how Obama wants to block ads that tell the true story about his bomber friend. At least that is truth being told and the evidence is there but this which the liberal media ignores as if it's not important is a joke. I mean this person who they want as President of the United States has ties with many of these scumbags and people like Fox pay no attention to it because it's not important. Biden even said Obama is not up for the job and you can google his words and video of him doing so. Americans are too interested in their choice losing rather than the better person winning the election. That's why I say America deserves the person they get. They want change just like the marketing campaign for Congress went but look how that went. Congress changed and did nothing and nothing got done. But that's ok as long as their party won which is what I laugh at.

Biden has changed his tone probably because he knows he will be President himself God forbid Obama gets elected. I would bet Biden makes President within weeks of Obama winning if not days. Their still are many Americans that will see to it.

[Nitro]

People are their silly partisan politics.

"OMFR Palin's unmarried daughter had a baby?!"

"ZOMG Obama doesn't wear a flag pin?!!?!?"

The answer to 2008 is 1776 but like hell that's ever going to happen with a country of apathetic souls drunk on 'bread and circuses'

Not directed at anyone here of course, just my two pesos =]

[Grimmy]

At the end of the day they are both bad for the country. Any way you look at it they are both full of SHIT!!! Plain and simple. I think I would rather toss my vote down the toilet.

Frank Zappa For Prez


I couldn't agree any more with ya Who!

Who's Frank Zappa though? :P

[EXEcution]

People are their silly partisan politics.

I don't think that you meant to phrase it that way but it sounds right.


The answer to 2008 is 1776...

Who would we be declaring independence from?

[Nitro]

I don't think that you meant to phrase it that way but it sounds right.



Who would we be declaring independence from?

yea, i meant "and" haha

and to answer your question, independence from megalomaniacs

[Mr Clean]

" apathetic souls drunk on 'bread and circuses' "

Where did that come from? Did Rush release a new album that I missed?

[OUTLAWS WHOCARES]

I couldn't agree any more with ya Who!

Who's Frank Zappa though? :P


r u serious?

[EXEcution]

" apathetic souls drunk on 'bread and circuses' "

Where did that come from? Did Rush release a new album that I missed?

I was curious about the expression myself so I looked it up. Turns out it's much older than Rush (possible?!) and it is an ancient Roman metaphor for people choosing food and fun over freedom.

I would have to disagree and say that you can't enjoy a good loaf of bread or a trip to the circus without being free to do so.

[FUS1ON]

The speeches at the RNC lastnight were really good, the little subtle nutshots to the groins of the other party are really humorous at times .... tonight's ought to be even better.

[FUS1ON]

Rudy Giuliani & Sarah Palin sure didn't disappoint, the Dems got pimpslappped!

In case you missed them
http://www.gopconvention2008.com/videos/

[OUTLAWS Tip]

Palin was awesome!!

Now there is a woman I can support.

What is the difference between a Hockey Mom and a Pit Bull?



Lipstick


:D
:thumbs: :thumbs:

[Nitro]

she is clearly insane

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/03/Palin_says_Iraq_war_is_task_from_God/UPI-66481220457877

[Mr Clean]

Osama bin Laden...

Obama and Biden....

Just a coincidence?

[OUTLAWS Tip]

:rolleyes:

At least her pastor for 20 years wasn't Reverend Wright.
:rofl:

[ME BIGGD01]

After watching John McCain yesterday I have learned to respect him even more. I feel he mentioned many things that we Americans can trust he will take care of and not sell out. He mentioned unity which I believe is very important as it seems their is a wave of freaks that are here to destroy this country. I believe in both McCain and Palin to be right for America even more after yesterdays speech.

[Mad Fox]

After watching John McCain yesterday I have learned to respect him even more. I feel he mentioned many things that we Americans can trust he will take care of and not sell out. He mentioned unity which I believe is very important as it seems their is a wave of freaks that are here to destroy this country. I believe in both McCain and Palin to be right for America even more after yesterdays speech.

Bigg could you mention those things that he won't sell out on that spoke to you. I felt his speech was a personal narrative of bravery and devotion.

[ME BIGGD01]

If you could not understand what he was talking about than there is no point of me explaining. Try someting called common sense.

[Mad Fox]

If you could not understand what he was talking about than there is no point of me explaining. Try someting called common sense.

I am not being facetious I seriously didnt see the issues that he was talking about. I heard energy and that is it not much else, ok maybe smaller gov't

[Nitro]

After watching John McCain yesterday I have learned to respect him even more. I feel he mentioned many things that we Americans can trust he will take care of and not sell out. He mentioned unity which I believe is very important as it seems their is a wave of freaks that are here to destroy this country. I believe in both McCain and Palin to be right for America even more after yesterdays speech.

You're a smart guy Danny. You know better than to believe what a politician has to say, no matter who the politician is ;)

[Mad Fox]

Palin recently said that the war in Iraq is "God's task." She's even admitted she hasn't thought about the war much—just last year she was quoted saying, "I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq." 1,2

Palin has actively sought the support of the fringe Alaska Independence Party. Six months ago, Palin told members of the group—who advocate for a vote on secession from the union—to "keep up the good work" and "wished the party luck on what she called its 'inspiring convention.'" 3

Palin wants to teach creationism in public schools. She hasn't made clear whether she thinks evolution is a fact.4

Palin doesn't believe that humans contribute to global warming. Speaking about climate change, she said, "I'm not one though who would attribute it to being manmade." 5

Palin has close ties to Big Oil. Her inauguration was even sponsored by BP. 6

Palin is extremely anti-choice. She doesn't even support abortion in the case of rape or incest. 7

Palin opposes comprehensive sex-ed in public schools. She's said she will only support abstinence-only approaches. 8

As mayor, Palin tried to ban books from the library. Palin asked the library how she might go about banning books because some had inappropriate language in them—shocking the librarian, Mary Ellen Baker. According to Time, "news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor." 9

She DID support the Bridge to Nowhere (before she opposed it). Palin claimed that she said "thanks, but no thanks" to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere. But in 2006, Palin supported the project repeatedly, saying that Alaska should take advantage of earmarks "while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist." 10

[Mad Fox]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/05/1353876.aspx

The above link will enlighten us to the take no prisoners body count of our favorite Republican lady. I thought Troopergate in NY was rediclous this is sheer madness.

[ME BIGGD01]

When you kids stop living off of your moms tit, and your dad's wallet then maybe you will be able to hold a real conversation. When your pubes are fully in, and you earn your own keep, I will be more than happy to discuss politics and or worl events. As of right now, I laugh at your comments or your know it all with out experience.

What America need s is another Draft and I hope you MadFox is the first one onboard. TO me you are just a stupid kid who knows nothing about the real world. A chubby little person who thinks he knows more by being supported by his parents than people who support a family. Maybe you should look at it from my stand point. It really is laughable and to think a few years ago you believed in Santa.

[Pure_Evil]

Keep in mind in a few years YOUR daughter and MY son would be elligable for that draft, sorry, only sand I want Little E seeing is the beach.

Fox brought out some interesting points, for someone with a short political career, hers isn't exactly Mrs Clean. Using the power of her office for personal use doesn't exactly fly. Bridge to nowhere, who cares. But trying to get her former brother in law fired, if that's true, get her off the ticket.

Maybe by the end of October, Nader will have a serious shot! Obama's not ready, McCain maybe past his time, but he's obviously the best the republicans have, and seeing that the republicans didn't like McCain much for most of this century, it's kind of ironic, isn't it.

[Mad Fox]

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.
-Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Mad Fox]

Bigg, your inane personal attacks make me chuckle because what it really exposes is an inaliblity to use and argue with mere facts. I would perfer to discuss issues of politics and other things rather than my ruined belief in Santa and physical weight. Thanks for ruining Santa.

[Pure_Evil]

Santa... weapons of mass destruction... oh the lies!!!!! :bawling::bawling::bawling:


ok guys, back on topic?

[ME BIGGD01]

Bigg, your inane personal attacks make me chuckle because what it really exposes is an inaliblity to use and argue with mere facts. I would perfer to discuss issues of politics and other things rather than my ruined belief in Santa and physical weight. Thanks for ruining Santa.

What personal attack? I told you, you're just a kid who have not lived therefore you do not have the ability to discuss anything. Besides, your a liberal who thinks peace is free.

[ME BIGGD01]

Santa... weapons of mass destruction... oh the lies!!!!! :bawling::bawling::bawling:


ok guys, back on topic?


Pure, the WMD is not the only reason we have gone to Iraq. I have said this before years ago and America had every right to go to Iraq. It's like arguing if it was right to go to Germany. One thing for sure that a few Americans fail to understand that if Saddam would have allowed the inspections that were sanctioned and agreed upon after Desert Storm, there would have been no war. To say any thing less is going against your own country. If people think doing nothing would have been a better move I suggest they evaluate just one more attack on the US had it happened. Ofcourse you are not one of those people who believes that we flew our own planes in to the Trade Buildings?

[ME BIGGD01]

" Pure_Evil;856905]Keep in mind in a few years YOUR daughter and MY son would be elligable for that draft, sorry, only sand I want Little E seeing is the beach."



A few years? More than 1o years. I honestly belive that our kids generation is more intelligent, respectful than the current. I would like to exclude a few from the current that actually have a lot of sense but the majority are useless to the world. A bunch of spoiled, ungrateful, the world owes me everything, I don't need to brush my hair, weak, I want it now genaration.

Honestly, when I see a school shooting today, it some times is laughable because the genaration has it's own answer. It's too bad that usually a good parent loses a good child.

[ME BIGGD01]

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.
-Franklin D. Roosevelt


You quote things that you feel makes your opinion correct. YOu probably don't know what that even means.

[Wiper]

What personal attack? I told you, you're just a kid who have not lived therefore you do not have the ability to discuss anything. Besides, your a liberal who thinks peace is free.

Infantile and naive is it to think that peace if for free....

yet it's narrow-minded to think that killing is the only way to buy peace. (Famous quote: "bombing for peace is like fornicating under command of the king for virginity")





It's grey and a many in this thread are discussing in a black and white way, so prepare for a lot of trashing in this thread :)

[Pure_Evil]

Pure, the WMD is not the only reason we have gone to Iraq. I have said this before years ago and America had every right to go to Iraq. It's like arguing if it was right to go to Germany. One thing for sure that a few Americans fail to understand that if Saddam would have allowed the inspections that were sanctioned and agreed upon after Desert Storm, there would have been no war. To say any thing less is going against your own country. If people think doing nothing would have been a better move I suggest they evaluate just one more attack on the US had it happened. Ofcourse you are not one of those people who believes that we flew our own planes in to the Trade Buildings?The current administration failed to finish the job in Iraq and gee, didn't this whole middle east mess start over Bin Laden? Is he still out there?

I know who was responsible for those attacks, they're probably not in Iraq, We've got Pakistan, Afghanistan ( we started there, but for some reason, detoured to Iraq) and let's not forget the Saudis funded it, but nooooo can't do anything about that..... Yup, vote for McCain and another 4-8 years of the same mess? I think 7 years of dicking around is enough.

Frankkly, 10 years will go by quick, and if we keep dicking around in the middle east, you bet our kids will be going.I'll be curious to see how you respond. Keep in mind, people like MF will be their high school teachers and their local government.....

[Nitro]

I'm still writing my name in on the ballot when I vote.

[Mad Fox]

Ok lets get real here this whole Middle East conundrum started with the British and their imperial foray into the region. Since then it has been turmoil. So I wouldn't blame the Bush Administration for our problems I blame their stupidity and lack of historical context. So lets right this wrong and end a useless war that has not accomplished one thing. And dont even tell me democracy is the answer becasue we are imperially propping up the Iraqis. What ever happened to sovereignty and self determination?

[Pure_Evil]

Why hasn't anyone started thumping on Barack's teenage drug usage?


"I had learned not to care," he wrote. "I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..."

"Blow" is a street name for cocaine. "Smack" is slang for heroin.

"Junkie. Pothead. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man," Obama wrote. "Except the highs hadn't been about that, me trying to prove what a down brother I was. Not by then, anyway. I got high for just the opposite effect, something that could push questions of who I was out of my mind, something that could flatten out the landscape of my heart, blur the edges of my memory. I had discovered that it didn't make any difference whether you smoked reefer in the white classmate's sparkling new van, or in the dorm room of some brother you'd met down at the gym, or on the beach with a couple of Hawaiian kids who had dropped out of school and now spent most of their time looking for an excuse to brawl. ... You might just be bored, or alone. Everybody was welcome into the club of disaffection.

McCain's wife, a former drug addiction


Oct. 18, 1999 | PHOENIX -- GOP presidential candidate John McCain's (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/05/14/mccain/index.html) wife Cindy took to the airwaves last week, recounting for Jane Pauley (on "Dateline") and Diane Sawyer (on "Good Morning America") the tale of her onetime addiction to Percocet and Vicodin, and the fact that she stole the drugs from her own nonprofit medical relief organization.


Let's see who has the most mud?

[Nitro]

Why hasn't anyone started thumping on Barac's teenage drug usage?



McCain's wife, a former drug addiction



Let's see who has the most mud?

...and we all know how much Shrub loooves the cocaine

i can dig it

[Sirc]

I took 3 Ibruprofen once, even though the bottle said to take only 2. I was young and foolish at the time. I can honestly say I'm past that stage in my life.

Vote for me.

[Nitro]

ill vote for you ^_^

[Pure_Evil]

If only Sirc was the only candidate that wore thongs :rolleyes: he'd get my vote too





Fortunately, he's got competition

[Nitro]

McKinney wears a thong?!

oh, and there's only one guy who would turn this corporation back into a country

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2008/09/200893194738167535.html

[Mad Fox]

Ron Paul is so far right he is almost left

[Mr Clean]

I took 3 Ibruprofen once, even though the bottle said to take only 2. I was young and foolish at the time. I can honestly say I'm past that stage in my life.

Vote for me.

LOL

You, sir, are a drug abuser...

[Mr Clean]

This is not a comment against either party, just curious if anyone else has noticed. Every time someone talks about a plan, it's always over a time span of like ten years. You get 4 years in elected, 8 if your lucky enough to get voted in twice. Why don't more Americans demand 4 year plans instead?

[Sirc]

I'm just getting really tired of hearing about God, from either party. God, who's ever God, has been a complete blight on this world.

The emphasis should be on the national economy, the national debt, the environment, and world peace.

Your God, their God, everyone's God just gets in the way. Keep your spiritual beliefs to yourself. It's time to keep self-believed myths on a personal level.

Yes, I know. One nation under God. Sorry, too generic. It doesn't work anymore, welcome out of the dark ages. It's pointless. And very harmful for everyone.

It's time for real change. One that isn't based on religious beliefs.

[Mad Fox]

"The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and yes, we got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported the war in Iraq. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America." - Sen. Barack Obama

[Suicidal]

C-c-c-changes...

[Nitro]

I'm just getting really tired of hearing about God, from either party. God, who's ever God, has been a complete blight on this world.

The emphasis should be on the national economy, the national debt, the environment, and world peace.

Your God, their God, everyone's God just gets in the way. Keep your spiritual beliefs to yourself. It's time to keep self-believed myths on a personal level.

Yes, I know. One nation under God. Sorry, too generic. It doesn't work anymore, welcome out of the dark ages. It's pointless. And very harmful for everyone.

It's time for real change. One that isn't based on religious beliefs.

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-09/free-thinker-satans-slave.jpg

Stop being led by Satan, Sirc you horrible sinner!!!

[EXEcution]

Stop being led by Satan, Sirc you horrible sinner!!!

Damn Nitro you gained some weight.

[Nitro]

i kno :(

[EXEcution]

i kno :(

But you grew boobies so it's not all bad.

[Mr Clean]

I'm just getting really tired of hearing about God, from either party. God, who's ever God, has been a complete blight on this world.

The emphasis should be on the national economy, the national debt, the environment, and world peace.

Your God, their God, everyone's God just gets in the way. Keep your spiritual beliefs to yourself. It's time to keep self-believed myths on a personal level.

Yes, I know. One nation under God. Sorry, too generic. It doesn't work anymore, welcome out of the dark ages. It's pointless. And very harmful for everyone.

It's time for real change. One that isn't based on religious beliefs.

So I guess you don't like the Constitution of the United States anymore...that's a shame.

[Nitro]

Most of them were deists, not fundamentalist christians, hence terms like divine providence and creator. the term god not used on money until the mid 1800s. god in pledge of allegience not until mid 1900s.

[Mr Clean]

Most of them were deists, not fundamentalist christians, hence terms like divine providence and creator. the term god not used on money until the mid 1800s. god in pledge of allegience not until mid 1900s.

Here is a breakdown of the "Founding Fathers", defined as someone who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

Of a total of 204, 88 were Episcopalian/Anglican, 30 were Presbyterian, 27 were Congregationalist, 7 were Quaker, 6 were Dutch Reformed/German Reformed, 5 were Lutheran, 3 were Catholic, 3 were Huguenot, 3 were Unitarian, 2 were Methodist, and 1 was Calvinist.

None of them were athiests, and all of them came from a Christian-based religion. They all worshipped the same God, and all those religions are Bible based. To call them "diests" is blatantly false.

Since it is impossible to seperate one part of the human pscyhie from another when doing anything, these men used their Bible-formed moral code when writing and editing the various documents noted above. Saying otherwise is disregarding the facts of the matter...

[Sirc]

So I guess you don't like the Constitution of the United States anymore...that's a shame.

Societies come and go. Those that evolve last the longest. I would like to see us evolve.

So, what do you think I don't like about the Constitution anyway? I'm good with letting people worship whatever God they choose. Or worship trees. Or frogs. Whatever floats your boat. Just keep it to yourself and keep it out of government.

[Mr Clean]

Societies come and go. Those that evolve last the longest. I would like to see us evolve.

So, what do you think I don't like about the Constitution anyway? I'm good with letting people worship whatever God they choose. Or worship trees. Or frogs. Whatever floats your boat. Just keep it to yourself and keep it out of government.

You said it was time for real change. One that is not based on religious beliefs. The Constitution is based on relgious beliefs. Ergo...

[Sirc]

Since it is impossible to seperate one part of the human pscyhie from another when doing anything, these men used their Bible-formed moral code when writing and editing the various documents noted above. Saying otherwise is disregarding the facts of the matter...

The founding fathers went to great lengths NOT to impose religion upon our new nation. The word "God" is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. It says that people are free to worship as they wish, but more importantly, government shall not impose religious beliefs upon the people.

These gentlemen did an excellent job of keeping whatever fairy-tales, fables, and lore they might have believed in OUT of the documents that they penned when establishing the framework of a new nation.

Now, over 200 years later, it's broken and needs to be fixed. I shudder every time a politician invokes the name of "God".

Here and now, in 2008, it's hard for me to believe that we have fallen back to placing so much emphasis on religion concerning politics. That's exactly what the founders of our nation did not want to happen.

[Sirc]

You said it was time for real change. One that is not based on religious beliefs. The Constitution is based on relgious beliefs. Ergo...

No, it's not. It's based on the freedom from having religion shoved down your throat. Show me where it says otherwise.

[Nick]

The founding fathers went to great lengths NOT to impose religion upon our new nation. The word "God" is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. It says that people are free to worship as they wish, but more importantly, government shall not impose religious beliefs upon the people.

These gentlemen did an excellent job of keeping whatever fairy-tales, fables, and lore they might have believed in OUT of the documents that they penned when establishing the framework of a new nation.

Now, over 200 years later, it's broken and needs to be fixed. I shudder every time a politician invokes the name of "God".

Here and now, in 2008, it's hard for me to believe that we have fallen back to placing so much emphasis on religion concerning politics. That's exactly what the founders of our nation did not want to happen.



excellent post !!! agreed 100%

[Sirc]

excellent post !!! agreed 100%

Meh, Nick is Canadian, but I still love him! :D

Invite me to your home for a week!

I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Tool rocks! :D

[Nick]

Meh, Nick is Canadian, but I still love him! :D

Invite me to your home for a week!


Tool rocks! :D

I love you too Sircs !!! :D

[Mad Fox]

It's not Judeo-Christian principles that the Constitution is based on, its a pro-slavery document. It was the English enlightenment.

[Nitro]

It's not Judeo-Christian principles that the Constitution is based on, its a pro-slavery document. It was the English enlightenment.

Thomas Paine was very adamant about the abolition of slavery during the time of the constitution being written. Read his book on it here : http://polachek.net/books/Paine/Paine,%20Thomas%20-%20African%20Slavery%20in%20America.pdf

as for Clean's argument, he writes a great book comparing deism with religion. deism, of course, morphing into unitarianism (these days universal unitarianism) and one can say free thought/new thought as well: http://polachek.net/books/Paine/Paine,%20Thomas%20-%20Of%20the%20Religion%20of%20Deism%20Compared%20W ith%20the%20Christian%20Religion.pdf

its true that anthropomorphic deities can be insinuated from terms used by the founding fathers because if this wasnt the case, you wouldnt have a 225 year old raging argument on the matter, but more reasonable is the thought process of an existential source as the root of divine providence as their belief of understanding all that is.

[EXEcution]

Religious beliefs tend to complicate things beyond reason. Let's assume that there is no physical God and God only exists as an idea. One would think that the mere idea of God represents a universal belief of goodness and virtue. Even Socrates said that he doesn't know what virtue is ergo he cannot describe God but he knew that he existed in some form.

God and reason can be used interchangeably in this context and because of this the idea of God can manifest itself through virtually anything from a text to a painting.

I don't think there is only one way of looking at God because that wouldn't fit into my argument. One can say that there is no universal Truth but only various ways of looking at this Truth, or God, or whatever you want to call it. This is basically Nietzsche's idea of perspectivism. This sums it up pretty well "We always adopt perspectives by default, whether we are aware of it or not, and the individual concepts of existence are defined by the circumstances surrounding that individual. Truth is made by and for individuals and peoples.[3] This view differs from many types of relativism which consider the truth of a particular proposition as something that altogether cannot be evaluated with respect to an "absolute truth", without taking into consideration culture and context." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectivism

Even science has made this assertion through quantum physics/mechanics and stated that many results are fuzzy and somewhat unpredictable. Everything around you is basically a product of your consciousness. At least that's one plausible explanation...

EDIT: I know it's a bit off topic but something to consider when making any sort of choice or thinking about God and free will.

[Mad Fox]

Thomas Paine was very adamant about the abolition of slavery during the time of the constitution being written. Read his book on it here : http://polachek.net/books/Paine/Paine,%20Thomas%20-%20African%20Slavery%20in%20America.pdf

as for Clean's argument, he writes a great book comparing deism with religion. deism, of course, morphing into unitarianism (these days universal unitarianism) and one can say free thought/new thought as well: http://polachek.net/books/Paine/Paine,%20Thomas%20-%20Of%20the%20Religion%20of%20Deism%20Compared%20W ith%20the%20Christian%20Religion.pdf

its true that anthropomorphic deities can be insinuated from terms used by the founding fathers because if this wasnt the case, you wouldnt have a 225 year old raging argument on the matter, but more reasonable is the thought process of an existential source as the root of divine providence as their belief of understanding all that is.

The fact reamins the Constitution legally sanctioned slavery in three places

3/5 clause
Fugitive Slave Clause
Limits on the Slave Trade until 1808


Scott v. Sanford

[Mr Clean]

No, it's not. It's based on the freedom from having religion shoved down your throat. Show me where it says otherwise.

I see you still don't read what others have written. I'll hold your hand and explain it to you one more time. All the founding fathers were religious men from Bible based sects, which is pretty much standard fare from that time. They were influenced by religion.

We know from Freud and others that no one can completely ignore their moral code when doing anything, whether it is finding a wallet or writing a document. Your moral influence is constantly with you, sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously. Given as these men were religious men, raised in religious backgrounds, it is utterly impossible for them to write a document without their moral code influencing it. Since their moral code was religiously influenced, their work was religiously influenced as well.

That doesn't mean the Constitution was written by a bishop, or that it endorses any particular religion. All it means is that it's religious based becaused the writers were.

Just because there is seperation of Church and State does not mean that the Constitution is not a religious document. It HAS to be considered a religious document because of the men that wrote it. Nothing else is possible.

Sirc, you could never go anywhere and stop being an American at least in part, no matter how long you were away. The saying that you carry a little piece of everyplace you've been is psychologically true.

If you want a document free from fairy-tales, fables, and lore, all you have to do is find someone who has never been influenced by any religion. Good luck on that search...

[Mr Clean]

The founding fathers went to great lengths NOT to impose religion upon our new nation. The word "God" is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. It says that people are free to worship as they wish, but more importantly, government shall not impose religious beliefs upon the people.

These gentlemen did an excellent job of keeping whatever fairy-tales, fables, and lore they might have believed in OUT of the documents that they penned when establishing the framework of a new nation.

Now, over 200 years later, it's broken and needs to be fixed. I shudder every time a politician invokes the name of "God".

Here and now, in 2008, it's hard for me to believe that we have fallen back to placing so much emphasis on religion concerning politics. That's exactly what the founders of our nation did not want to happen.

Most of this I just answered, but to add one thing: Why do you think the Founding Fathers wanted seperation of Chruch and State? Two main reasons. First, because England did not. England had a recognized church, and we didn't want to be like England. Secondly, the southern states did not want to lose slavery, and since several nothern states had large polulations of religions (Quakers as an example) that were opposed to slavery, the southern states needed a guarantee that no religion that would end slavery could be forced on them. It was an economic concession to the South.

The Constitution is a great document, but it is still a document of the times it was written in.

[Mr Clean]

EXE, quantum physics and other higher sciences are still "fuzzy" in many areas because they can't yet authoratatively prove all their theories. 20 years ago quarks and gluons were just a theory, yet now we know they exist. In fact the only particle yet to be found from that theory, the Higgs Boson, is one of the reasons the Large Hadron Collidor was built. Today's theories may become tomorrows facts.

Perspectivism is fine and dandy, but there are indeed many facts that are irrefutable.

The only product of someone's consciousness is how they relate it to unproven things, like God. But the core facts remain the same regardless of who is looking at it or trying to understand it.

[Nitro]

That is all fine and well, but it should just be understood that a politician, namely one who is running for vice president, should not use phrases such as "Iraq is a task from god" and “God’s will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built.” since that just makes them like any other warmonger that used the name of god and religion in order to commit genocide and wars. I think at least that is understandable as being logical.

[Sirc]

Just because there is seperation of Church and State does not mean that the Constitution is not a religious document. It HAS to be considered a religious document because of the men that wrote it. Nothing else is possible.

That's just ridiculous. If a priest happened to be a car enthusiast and wrote a manual on how to rebuild an engine, would that be a religion-based document? No.

And seriously, don't give me your "holding hand" crap Clean. I have read what others have written. You are the only one insisting it's a religious document.

You are evading the facts. You can't give an example of any passage that has religious overtones, because there are none other then the Constitution saying you have the right to believe what you want, and that government cannot impose religious beliefs upon you.

Just because you say "It HAS to be considered a religious document" doesn't make it a religious document. You'll have to do better than that.

[Sirc]

That is all fine and well, but it should just be understood that a politician, namely one who is running for vice president, should not use phrases such as "Iraq is a task from god" and “God’s will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built.” since that just makes them like any other warmonger that used the name of god and religion in order to commit genocide and wars. I think at least that is understandable as being logical.

This.

[EXEcution]

EXE, quantum physics and other higher sciences are still "fuzzy" in many areas because they can't yet authoratatively prove all their theories. 20 years ago quarks and gluons were just a theory, yet now we know they exist. In fact the only particle yet to be found from that theory, the Higgs Boson, is one of the reasons the Large Hadron Collidor was built. Today's theories may become tomorrows facts.

Perspectivism is fine and dandy, but there are indeed many facts that are irrefutable.

The only product of someone's consciousness is how they relate it to unproven things, like God. But the core facts remain the same regardless of who is looking at it or trying to understand it.

I agree with what you say.
However, all I'm trying to say or prove is that you can't invest too much in any belief. It's dangerous and if you consider the negative impacts it may have on individuals and society then you can see why we need NEW beliefs and ideas to go along with a constantly changing world.

[EXEcution]

That's just ridiculous. If a priest happened to be a car enthusiast and wrote a manual on how to rebuild an engine, would that be a religion-based document? No.

And seriously, don't give me your "holding hand" crap Clean. I have read what others have written. You are the only one insisting it's a religious document.

You are evading the facts. You can't give an example of any passage that has religious overtones, because there are none other then the Constitution saying you have the right to believe what you want, and that government cannot impose religious beliefs upon you.

Just because you say "It HAS to be considered a religious document" doesn't make it a religious document. You'll have to do better than that.

This was also written by TOOL in regards to religious beliefs.

""this sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your t.v. everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing...""

[Nitro]

Both come from royal bloodlines, that should be a deterrant as it is.

Obama, Cheney, Powell, Gore, and Bush, and Kerry are all related by blood as cousins. McCain is related to notorious kings such as French Louis VII and Spanish Ferdinand III to name a few as well as George Washington, whose lineage is ever more chocked up in royalty that it's almost pornographic. Oh, and Mccain is related to Obama through a common ancestor William I from Scotland. It might seem as just some fun-filled fact but if you dig deep into it, you'll see why bloodlines and royality is so damn important for them.

Stop voting royal bloodlines into office and perhaps you will finally get the *real* "change" you all want. However, either way one of them will be president or Shrub will declare martial law and he'll still be president. It doesn't matter. There will be no change without a revolution of the ocmmners. Simple as that. Do not expect any change to occur in the next 4 or 8 years or until this revolution, which Thomas Jefferson said should occur at least every 20 years, occurs.

[Sirc]

Both come from royal bloodlines, that should be a deterrant as it is.

Obama, Cheney, Powell, Gore, and Bush, and Kerry are all related by blood as cousins. McCain is related to notorious kings such as French Louis VII and Spanish Ferdinand III to name a few as well as George Washington, whose lineage is ever more chocked up in royalty that it's almost pornographic. Oh, and Mccain is related to Obama through a common ancestor William I from Scotland.

Stop voting royal bloodlines into office and perhaps you will finally get the *real* "change" you all want.

You know, sometimes you can be very coherent and say some really wise things. Other times you go just left of way the hell out in the middle of lala land. I'm guessing you can see lala land from where you are right now. It's to your right, cause you're clearly just left of it at the moment. Enjoy your trip.

[Wiper]

You know, sometimes you can be very coherent and say some really wise things. Other times you go just left of way the hell out in the middle of lala land. I'm guessing you can see lala land from where you are right now. It's to your right, cause you're clearly just left of it at the moment. Enjoy your trip.

I've also read somewhere before that most of the bloodlines of the presidents have something royal in it or are related to eachother:)

[Sirc]

I've also read somewhere before that most of the bloodlines of the presidents have something royal in it or are related to eachother:)

Post some sort of proof. Post some links. Otherwise, yeah, I'm a direct descendant of Hercules. Because I say so.

[Pure_Evil]

:hmmm:
Post some sort of proof. Post some links. Otherwise, yeah, I'm a direct descendant of Hercules. Because I say so.:hmmm:

[SASQUATCH]

I get a kick out of people who read 3 articles and now an expert on the subject. LOL

I really don't care much for religious but only to read about it's history and when they do begin to talk or preach about GOD etc I take a small nap and wake up when it's over to hear more important issues.

[Nitro]

Post some sort of proof. Post some links. Otherwise, yeah, I'm a direct descendant of Hercules. Because I say so.

Obama and Cheney cousins: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21340764/
Bush and Kerry cousins: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/04/politics/main604163.shtml
Powell and Bush cousins: http://msn.ancestry.com/landing/msn/strange/bush3/tree.htm
Obama and Bush cousins: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7313789.stm
Mccain and Laura Bush cousins: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/us/politics/26gene.html

Not enough research has been done into Mccain's, Biden's and Palin's royal bloodline so it is only a matter of time before more are found. There are probably more links between each other and definitely with other presidents and high-society figures but I think you get the point I'm making here.

Furthermore, a geneology tree showing how 25 US presidents are related: http://bp1.blogger.com/_xrDiLQqAbzI/RxejnpgSaMI/AAAAAAAAAgk/8O58TxGa6AU/s1600-h/25Prez.jpg

Do you honestly think there is nothing to this? Their relations originate in no ordinary family, but in royalty, but I won't take the time to write the names of the kings and queens since that would take a while and most of the royal blood is given by name in those links.

[FUS1ON]

You people have way too much time on your hands, take a break and laugh.
http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/palin-hillary-open/656281/

[OUTLAWS Tip]

I am a decendant of Adam, as are all the candidates and former presidents.

Therefore I am related to everyone. What's happening Cous?
:P

[Nitro]

*sigh*

[SASQUATCH]

Mc Cain will probably die of a heart attack or some kind of complications and she will become the next president. She has no experience but an actor who was once a sports caster. Imagine her running the country. Doh!

I decided to vote for Obama not because of his qualifications but because he selected a reasonable Vice president who I know has experience. Not much to select because the third party sucks as well as the democratic or republican.

Pure Evil said it best, “3rd party candidates are one of the weakest in years, and it’s sad.” This includes the other candidates.

Whoever becomes president will only serve one term because the American people are demanding action to be done quickly and that isn’t going to happen. It will take years for it to see any progress.

This is what I predict that will happen for the next president.


Now to change the subject but it does relate to what I mean about foreign affairs besides economics.
Read>>>
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=12704&sectionid=351020202
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/me_israel0031_04_07.asp

This is just the beginning by the way more will begin to happen world wide.

[Nitro]

Lehmen Brothers filed bankruptcy today and is not getting bailed out by BA or the Fed for that matter. In the past 5 days, Lehman shares fell 99%, AIG's shares fell 80%, Wamu's fell 50%, and Merrill's shares fell 30%. This is soo big it's not even funny anymore. These have been the worst and darkest 7 years in American history and yet, the commoners don't seem to learn from past mistakes. Change? No, no change. Not by the voting process, at least.

[Pure_Evil]

I regret I didn't put Nader in the poll :(

[SASQUATCH]

I would vote for him but I know he isn't going to win or come any close to winning. He has good ideas but at this time Obama when he picked Joe Biden is the closes thing to me that can or may have some impact on foreign issues and especially our economy. Like you said Pure Evil not much of a selection.

[SASQUATCH]

Lehmen Brothers filed bankruptcy today and is not getting bailed out by BA or the Fed for that matter. In the past 5 days, Lehman shares fell 99%, AIG's shares fell 80%, Wamu's fell 50%, and Merrill's shares fell 30%. This is soo big it's not even funny anymore. These have been the worst and darkest 7 years in American history and yet, the commoners don't seem to learn from past mistakes. Change? No, no change. Not by the voting process, at least.

That was a big blow for us and it's only going to get worse. :(

[ME BIGGD01]

Sas, to say McCain is going to die of a heart attack or even die is kinda pathetic. I mean what gives you the ability to say that? I am curious to know why that is the selling point of the Democrat party? That's like saying many peoples parents are going to die in the next 4 years which is mind boggling. Geez, he has grey hair, he will die tomorrow.

Now you and many dare to scrutinize ove rthe Vice President and the biggest argument about her is experience. That's fine and I believe she has experience whether you agree or disagree. My point about it is if that's such a downed than please by all means explain to me the experience the person you are voting has. I mean let's not make excuses and let's say Palin does not have any experience, how is it you are willing to vote for a person who has no experience in anything yet they are running for president.

I think the Democrats show their true colors and this is the common argument which I laugh at because they are willing to question the word experience. Oh, and I also want to know where Biden has so much experience? Obama-Biden, does that as a name sound familiar? The joke is on all of you, the ignorant people who make comments yet not really discuss anything or make a valid point.

[ME BIGGD01]

I just want to make one more point. Looking at the vote results I would bet anything that the majority of people who voted for Osama, are not even American or a college kid who does not know his ass from his elbow and owns nothing. Now looking at the McCain votes, Americans are not that dumb because I would also bet that Americans have placed their vote for him.

As for 3rd party, I can accept and respect that choice due to the common practice in today politicians regardless of them never getting a chance to win. Usually a vote for the 3rd party is a wasted vote but a 2 thumbs up for atleast showing true disgust for both Republican and Democratic parties.

[SASQUATCH]

Sas, to say McCain is going to die of a heart attack or even die is kinda pathetic. I mean what gives you the ability to say that? I am curious to know why that is the selling point of the Democrat party? That's like saying many peoples parents are going to die in the next 4 years which is mind boggling. Geez, he has grey hair, he will die tomorrow.

Now you and many dare to scrutinize ove rthe Vice President and the biggest argument about her is experience. That's fine and I believe she has experience whether you agree or disagree. My point about it is if that's such a downed than please by all means explain to me the experience the person you are voting has. I mean let's not make excuses and let's say Palin does not have any experience, how is it you are willing to vote for a person who has no experience in anything yet they are running for president.

I think the Democrats show their true colors and this is the common argument which I laugh at because they are willing to question the word experience. Oh, and I also want to know where Biden has so much experience? Obama-Biden, does that as a name sound familiar? The joke is on all of you, the ignorant people who make comments yet not really discuss anything or make a valid point.


You know I never try to insult you when you come up with the most outrageous comments and believe me you have ok.


As for Joe Biden is why I decided to vote for him because he has been around for a long time and was U.S. Senate in 1973 and Mc Cain was U.S. Senate in 1986 ok. If you look up on both you will see that they both have done pretty well but I feel Joe Biden can do the job and as for Mc Cain who selected as vice president, not only was she a Sports caster but also the next runner up for Miss Alaska. Joe Biden is the 5th youngest ever elected as a senator in history of the US. Mc Cain health can happen at any time and he is slow and sluggish when I hear him speak but again I would rather have Obama with Joe Biden not because so much of Mc Cain Health but because I didn’t like the selection that Mc Cain picked.


Please, choose your words wisely when you speak to me next time ok, I hope I made myself clear.

[FUS1ON]

I just want to make one more point. Looking at the vote results I would bet anything that the majority of people who voted for Osama, are not even American or a college kid who does not know his ass from his elbow and owns nothing. Now looking at the McCain votes, Americans are not that dumb because I would also bet that Americans have placed their vote for him.


Just to expand on that .... This is from a forum where the members are predominately low to middle class white adult Americans and NO, it's not some racist site either and I meant nothing racist by that. I'm just giving an idea of the types of people that go there.
John McCain / Sarah Palin 83 76.85%
Barrack Obama / Joe Biden 8 7.41%
Other 7 6.48%
I will not vote 10 9.26%

Anyone .... please feel free to post results from any other polls you happen to run across. I think it would be interesting to see some poll results.

Biggs you had me patting you on the back up until the "Obama-Biden, does that as a name sound familiar?" part .... lol

[SASQUATCH]

Rumor is that some of the college campus like Obama but it might have changed but over all I believe Mc Cain is going to win the election.

[ME BIGGD01]

SAS, I am not or never insulting you personally but directing your comments with the media and every other statement dicussing McCains age.

as for the debate, I do find your reasons bias in many ways. You talk about Palin in a negative way for no reason. I mean really, what has she done bad? I have not seen one comment posted here or on the news regarding anything that degrades her. So she is a pretty woman, good for her. She is a mother of five with a child with DS and she continues to serve her country. Regardless of all of that, comments are made about silly things that have nothing to do with reality and her service. What's the point of that. Still, I find it weird that no one has yet mentioned why Obama would be a better PResident or what experience he has that over rules McCain. I find the argument that the Vice Presidents are the good enough reason yet the truth or comparisons have yet been made.

I take the argument of anyone who posts here on the subject and redirect to where it seems better on theother side. Even in comparison to the actual man running for prsident on the Democrat side vs the Vice President of the Republican side and still can't see an argument who would run the country better. I hear or read comments that do not make sense and I ask you all who disagree withme to make a valid point /and or convince me.

Considering that no point has been made regarding what I ask, I think those voting for Obama should honestly ask themself why they are voting for him. That's the reason I want to know. WHat is it that anyone thinks Obama is better and I want to know the reaosn. Again, noone has yet to mention it but come back with negatives as if I am hearing an Obama commercial. Change? What change?

CONVINCE ME!!!!!

[Pure_Evil]

Why give the Republicans another 4 years when the country has gone down hill on their watch.

Palin hasn't been in office long enough to do anything majorly wrong, one of the reasons she was picked, besides her vagina. But her firing of the public safety commissioner over her soon to be x-brother-in-law is reason enough to see abuse of power at that level, how might she abuse even bigger power?

Keep in mind I work for PD and what she pulled stinks, if true.

Obama hasn't done much either, but the Dems have shown a history of economic growth, and this country needs that!

[Gun Element]

Unfortunately, the decision on whom to recommend is not based on what they can offer. And I don't really think at the current time it will be a good idea to create something either. What you can do for evaluation is whether they had any experience before, and what kind of experiences are those (like which side they are leaning towards). That is why the Democrat side is attacking McCain on his previous decisions, cause, they can put any kind of policy there that you may like to hear, but, at the end, how much of that will come true?

I am okay with him changing his policies, by seeing what the public wants, but, it won't be a measure you can really use to decide on the candidate's capabilities. The same is also true for the Obama camp. They are offering things that feel good when you hear them. But, how much of those will they be able to practice? Biden was in favor of dividing Iraq into 3, and if Obama tries to go for that, will that be a mistake, or a correct decision? Nothing is clear at the moment.

[SASQUATCH]

Nothing isn’t clear predicting what will happen in the future but it is certain that either party will, and I am convince that whoever wins will only server one term.

Bigg’s you need to read what you said carefully but that isn’t important only because you didn’t go any further to piss me off.

Now let’s get back on the topic if something should go wrong to Mc Cain and he isn’t able to perform his duties as a president, she will be running the country.

Now you need to check her history. Below will give you an idea for you to lookup ok plus the fact that her experience is nowhere close to Obama but that again isn’t the reason why I picked Obama because there isn’t much of a choice for me to select but to choose Obama because he picked Joe Biden for vice president not that he will make any changes quickly or whatever but he has the most experience of all. Mc Cain picks Sarah Palin for the women’s votes and that to me is a desperate man who wants to win. He could have picked someone else with much more qualifications but he didn’t, and ask yourself why. Hmm that to me is a republican who wants to win and not about the best interest for the country. Right now because of the limited selection for this year’s election I was force to vote for Obama and have no choice to think ahead when it comes for foreign affairs and if you look closely at Joe Biden history he has experience and can provide advice when it comes to foreign affairs and more. He has been in office since 1973 as a senator.

Foreign affairs, I have said this many times is going to play a major role for this country, economically and more.

Below is what you may want to lookup but that is only a small part that you need to look into. I am sure that in the future she may one day provide good service and she has now with some mistakes which are fine no one is perfect but experience is what she is lacking and needs to earn it in order to gain.

Predator Control policy
Public Safety Commissioner dismissal
Budget and spending

She was elected governor of Alaska in November 2006, becoming the first woman and the youngest person to hold the position in Alaska. She was a mayor not long ago and now she is going to be vice president.

Again if something should happen to Mc Cain she will be running the country and I tell you this, they will eat her alive when it comes to foreign affair and major issues like Iran or dealing with Russia or China. Military and other advisor will use her as a puppet because history speaks for itself, for example Kennedy crises with Cuba. Kennedy and his brother had to make hard choices and practically the Military advisor's try to muscle in on them when they finally made their decision. This is true if you have read the history and even some of the presidents have said so not only by Military advisors but also many of the powerful US advisor's. Now if something should happen to Obama I feel much more comfortable to know that Joe Biden will handle it.

Either way it doesn’t matter because like I said, whoever becomes the next president, will only server one term.

I might have picked Mc Cain but when he selected Sarah Palin, he lost my vote.

[ME BIGGD01]

Why give the Republicans another 4 years when the country has gone down hill on their watch.

Palin hasn't been in office long enough to do anything majorly wrong, one of the reasons she was picked, besides her vagina. But her firing of the public safety commissioner over her soon to be x-brother-in-law is reason enough to see abuse of power at that level, how might she abuse even bigger power?

Keep in mind I work for PD and what she pulled stinks, if true.

Obama hasn't done much either, but the Dems have shown a history of economic growth, and this country needs that!


I don't think you would want to be accused of something. Like you said "IF" which means she has not been proven guilty. In todays day these people would be bound to get caught in the American eye.

Also I am curious to know where the Democrats were responsible for economic growth? I bet the majority of the people here don't even know who's at fault for the housing crisis. Did youknow it was the Dempcrats that pushed the Bill to allow mortgages for lower income people? Loans these lower income people could not pay? DO you know it was the Clintons that allowed Russia to sell nuclear technology to Iran?

The only thing the Democrats are good for his hurting the middle class. THey believe your earned money is to be taxed even more so that minorities and illegals can live easier.

God forbid if anyone who owns a house and has some savings ever gets sick or injured and needs assistance. You would not be able to get any help unless you lose your house and have no savings. The system is broken and hurts the blue collar family. It's a simple scenario to think about and imagine yourself and see how or where you would end up.

I don't beleieve it's right my property tax's are 10,000 a year. That money is getting wasted and as an American, I am getting robbed along with other AMricans. Most of it goes to schools where just in my duaghters school they have special programs for kids who can't speak english. That's Bullshit!!!! That's the Democrat way and I plan to leave this Democrat state as as things fail with my wife. Democrats want your votes and can't get enough so they need the illegals to vote for the help.

The Democrats have done nothing but ruin this country going against everything to try to make the other party look bad. IT has divided the country and nothing gets done. Why has the Democrat congress failed to do anything? THey have a lower rating than the President and that means a lot. Not anyone here can tell me what any Democrat does for the economy and I ask again, what it is if they have?

[ME BIGGD01]

Sas, you mentioned nothing that makes Palin look bad. She has been doing her job and there is nothing bad to say but she does nt hve the experience. But what people fail to see is what she stands for. She is a true American with true American values. Plain and simple.

Do you know who John McCain wanted for vice president? It was a Democrat but it would ave faileed him so he went another way. TO think that he is willing to work together with the other party which he will also bring into his cabinet says more than anything because I feel if the parties cannot work together we are doomed. I think the 8 years of the current administration proves that where you have no team work from the other side and the other side is doing everything to make us fail.

For an example, we have many Democrats bash and oput down America their own country to make the president look dumb. They accused our military of raping and murder in Iraq. THey have said we cannot win in Iraq. They have done nothing but divide and embarass this nation which reflects more on how other nations look on us. What is another leader of another nation to think when they look at what's happeneing? Why do you think the enemies to America want A democrat in office? BEcause Democrats are not the same as they were 10 years ago. They are not true Americans and they do not hold American values. The average ignoarnt American looks at what is going on right now andthe problems we face and instead of doing what they should and look into it themself, they blame the current President. Just like Katrina. They blamed Bush for the failure of response when the Fact is the local Government did not do what they were suppose to. They were Democrats in charge yet Bush got the blame for their failure by ignorant Americans.

There is no one on this froum that can win in a debate because I do not compete to win but bring truth. Still after all the years here not one has brought an argument to the table that makes sense or realistic. It's so easy to hate and blame but dare to challenge reasons which is what I am all about with a bit of a more vulgar way of expressing it. I have not heard anything convincing because none of you can find anything through your research tool google. It's a shame that some people are to reluctant to have the person lose they want to win rather than step back and say well what is it I really like about Obama. To think that is the real reason some of you are so thick headed is scary to think you are willing to allow someone win just so you can not be wrong.

ANd I will state this and say it clear. Obama has a lot higher chance not living through out the 4 years as president than McCain. I would not worry about the vice president though and focus on who is running for President.

[Pure_Evil]

I don't think you would want to be accused of something. Like you said "IF" which means she has not been proven guilty. In todays day these people would be bound to get caught in the American eye.

Also I am curious to know where the Democrats were responsible for economic growth? I bet the majority of the people here don't even know who's at fault for the housing crisis. Did youknow it was the Dempcrats that pushed the Bill to allow mortgages for lower income people? Loans these lower income people could not pay? DO you know it was the Clintons that allowed Russia to sell nuclear technology to Iran?

The only thing the Democrats are good for his hurting the middle class. THey believe your earned money is to be taxed even more so that minorities and illegals can live easier.

God forbid if anyone who owns a house and has some savings ever gets sick or injured and needs assistance. You would not be able to get any help unless you lose your house and have no savings. The system is broken and hurts the blue collar family. It's a simple scenario to think about and imagine yourself and see how or where you would end up.

I don't beleieve it's right my property tax's are 10,000 a year. That money is getting wasted and as an American, I am getting robbed along with other AMricans. Most of it goes to schools where just in my duaghters school they have special programs for kids who can't speak english. That's Bullshit!!!! That's the Democrat way and I plan to leave this Democrat state as as things fail with my wife. Democrats want your votes and can't get enough so they need the illegals to vote for the help.

The Democrats have done nothing but ruin this country going against everything to try to make the other party look bad. IT has divided the country and nothing gets done. Why has the Democrat congress failed to do anything? THey have a lower rating than the President and that means a lot. Not anyone here can tell me what any Democrat does for the economy and I ask again, what it is if they have?Iran- Contra-Regan_Republican

8 years later, still pointing at Clinton....LOL!

[SASQUATCH]

Sas, you mentioned nothing that makes Palin look bad. She has been doing her job and there is nothing bad to say but she does nt hve the experience. But what people fail to see is what she stands for. She is a true American with true American values. Plain and simple.

Do you know who John McCain wanted for vice president? It was a Democrat but it would ave faileed him so he went another way. TO think that he is willing to work together with the other party which he will also bring into his cabinet says more than anything because I feel if the parties cannot work together we are doomed. I think the 8 years of the current administration proves that where you have no team work from the other side and the other side is doing everything to make us fail.

For an example, we have many Democrats bash and oput down America their own country to make the president look dumb. They accused our military of raping and murder in Iraq. THey have said we cannot win in Iraq. They have done nothing but divide and embarass this nation which reflects more on how other nations look on us. What is another leader of another nation to think when they look at what's happeneing? Why do you think the enemies to America want A democrat in office? BEcause Democrats are not the same as they were 10 years ago. They are not true Americans and they do not hold American values. The average ignoarnt American looks at what is going on right now andthe problems we face and instead of doing what they should and look into it themself, they blame the current President. Just like Katrina. They blamed Bush for the failure of response when the Fact is the local Government did not do what they were suppose to. They were Democrats in charge yet Bush got the blame for their failure by ignorant Americans.

There is no one on this froum that can win in a debate because I do not compete to win but bring truth. Still after all the years here not one has brought an argument to the table that makes sense or realistic. It's so easy to hate and blame but dare to challenge reasons which is what I am all about with a bit of a more vulgar way of expressing it. I have not heard anything convincing because none of you can find anything through your research tool google. It's a shame that some people are to reluctant to have the person lose they want to win rather than step back and say well what is it I really like about Obama. To think that is the real reason some of you are so thick headed is scary to think you are willing to allow someone win just so you can not be wrong.

ANd I will state this and say it clear. Obama has a lot higher chance not living through out the 4 years as president than McCain. I would not worry about the vice president though and focus on who is running for President.

You are entitling to your opinion and this is why it's best to keep it that way.

I can not express anymore what I said about Mc Cains choice like I said she isn't ready. She has done pretty well but experience is a major factor for the coming years and this includes Obama as well. There isn't anyone qualified for the job at this time. This is one of the weakest election besides Bush winning for electing a president.

------------------------

BTW Biggs I heard Long Island property taxes are going up again. This isn't good news for home owners in Long Island. This needs to be stopped because hard working people are losing there homes and to mention the cost of Health care. Bigg's you may need to correct me on this not sure but I heard something that property owners or home owners the taxes is going up again in Long Island.

-------------------------

At this time I really don't care much about who wins because like I said who ever wins will only serve one term.

I am curious to know who may run in the next 4 years and I will not be surprise if Mayor Mike Bloomberg runs for President in the next 4 years. What I like about him is he is a business man and I believe we are going to need someone like him or anyone who can find away to make money and bring jobs and security for our country.

Once again Pure Evil said something that makes logic sense and that is people are tired of the republicans and they want a change and it's now democratic turn to handle this problem we been all having.

[ME BIGGD01]

Sas, yes I agree we are entitiled to our own opinion but this also relates to ignorance at times. I am not saying you are ignorant but I stress that comments made without facts based off of an opinion/s wihout proper research or knowing the truth is what I dispute over. I simply do not mind any sort of debate as long as the other party can do more than make statements rather than provide truth.

example
It is my opinion Obama is a Radical Muslim lying about being a Christian. This can be a valid opinion because of those he is involved with along with the proof being there for anyone to look up. This is just my opinion and is not based off of facts as I can not prove it but due to the other information it is valid and can not be based off of ignorance.

As far as the taxes going up ofcourse. Ithas gone up every year and for what? Do I care? Only enough to deal with family situation and move away from this state. It's pathetic and just not worth living here. When I am ready, I will close business which is already in the process, sell everything and write off losses and move to start over in a better place for my daughter and myself. The great thing about America is the ability to do that. New York can sink or be nuked for all I care once I leave. The place smells like piss anyway.

[Pure_Evil]

example
It is my opinion Obama is a Radical Muslim lying about being a Christian. This can be a valid opinion because of those he is involved with along with the proof being there for anyone to look up. This is just my opinion and is not based off of facts as I can not prove it but due to the other information it is valid and can not be based off of ignorance.

You always mention proof, where's yours?

I'm still on the fence on this election.

[SASQUATCH]

Sas, yes I agree we are entitiled to our own opinion but this also relates to ignorance at times. I am not saying you are ignorant but I stress that comments made without facts based off of an opinion/s wihout proper research or knowing the truth is what I dispute over. I simply do not mind any sort of debate as long as the other party can do more than make statements rather than provide truth.

example
It is my opinion Obama is a Radical Muslim lying about being a Christian. This can be a valid opinion because of those he is involved with along with the proof being there for anyone to look up. This is just my opinion and is not based off of facts as I can not prove it but due to the other information it is valid and can not be based off of ignorance.

As far as the taxes going up of course. Ithas gone up every year and for what? Do I care? Only enough to deal with family situation and move away from this state. It's pathetic and just not worth living here. When I am ready, I will close business which is already in the process, sell everything and write off losses and move to start over in a better place for my daughter and myself. The great thing about America is the ability to do that. New York can sink or be nuked for all I care once I leave. The place smells like piss anyway.

I have given you some facts and what you needed to do is look them up in more detail Bigg's.

That will be all from me on this topic I am heading out to Long Beach California this week for 3 weeks.

Until then cheers

[ME BIGGD01]

You always mention proof, where's yours?

I'm still on the fence on this election.



I am unsure what you need me to prove but ask me anything and I will get you the proof. I did not start this thread or any for that matter. I simply posted against what others opinion may be and where it is not accurate. I cannot understand how anyone can blame the current administration for all the problems we are in as a nation. This is my argument which I try to stress. I do not support everything going on and I have been outspoken about many things but I do argue that a finger can be pointed at one thing which is why I speak up and try to say hey fellow American, pay closer attention. I believe we are facing WW3 which people will say we started it but not look in to what is going on in the world and what we are up against. The nation is divided on lies and I do not ever claim for it to be one sided but when either will not work together there is a problem and we the people are going to pay for it. I cannot accept someone saying he will change everything and split the waters etc without an explanation where we can do the math and see that it is impossible.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the majority who mae up these threads are venting our some sort of frustration. Usually when that happens they're are not really looking at the whole picture. I can make a million threads about things that is frustrating the hell out of me from health care and insurance to energy etc but I feel I have to rely on myself to make sure my family is taken care of. I just don't want any more of my money being taken so that someone who does not do anything or belong here able to get benifits. If it was up to me this country would be a lot colder and no one would get shit. If you can't make it here you can't make it any where. The corruption that we all speak of is about people who do not look at the right way as to pointing a finger. It's our fault plain and simple because as Americans we want things done yesterday without looking at how things get done. Global competition means we need to be on the same team.

I can and will give any proof to anything I say that is not based off of opinion. I will though give conclusions to my opinions so it will be understandable to how I came up with it. I beleive as an American we are not entitled to anything but at the same time should not be paying for someone else to be.

As for Iraq, America is doing for it what we have done many times such as Gremany and Japan. The belief is we live a more peaceful world when nations believe in the same thing and or work together. Both Japan and Germany are now allies and we live in peace regardless of what has happened in the past. IF you deny that it is wrong being in Iraq then you deny being in Japan or Germany was also wrong. It does bother me to hear the Archie Bunker talk here that we invaded another country because it is so not accurate regardless of WMD's. Sometimes that being spoken as the main issue is mind boggling because if that was the case, the UN sanction in place should have been followed and no war would have ever been. I cannot understand why as an American, people would say something against there own country without understanding the full picture. There is a lot more to it and I will just say if more nations that support terrorism attack, you can bet the economy will be a lot worst and the wars will be a lot worst. This is a reality that Americans fail to pay attention to. I am sick and tired of people calling our President a moron without explaining what they would do differently. It's like that fat **** sitting on the couch watching football saying the QTR back is an asshole for not throwing the touch down. It's so easy to say that sitting from your couch and this my friends is what makes me post inthese threads.

The reality is the world is F'd up and tehre are nations working against us to kill us and weaken us. Russia as I have said for years was working against us and I think if anyone searches my posts will see that what I said was right. Not because I am mr almighty but because I look at things a lot different than many of youon this forum do. My views are a lot different and may seem sick and crazy at times but at the end of the day I believe in preventing rather than be on defence. Iran will get a nuclear bomb because of everyone thinkig we have to be diplomatic. I say you tell them to stop now or you all die. Now many will think that's crazy but again at the end of the day a lot of people will die anyway because of not preventing it. If no one steps up to the plate, the enemy becomes more of a threat which is why I bash the Clintons. On top of the bashing of the Clintons, no one ever mentions about the war crimes under Bill Clinton which is another thing that is mind boggling. I beleieve ignorance is already part of American society and the sick thing is our enemies know it.

[ME BIGGD01]

And for the record, I have many family members that are Democrats. The one thing I do hear from them is that the Democrat party is a lot different or actually not the same as to when Bill Clinton was President. Although I was not crazy about Bill Clinton I do agree with the point my Brother who is a die hard Clinton fan.

I am curious if there are Democrats here that actually feel the same because I think it is important to see where the problem is. As a conservitive I can atleast honestly say that I do not believe the Republicans are all that great either. This is why I respect John McCain because many times he has gone against hos own party which is a fact and has a lot of Democrats as friends. I can not plead for anything more important than both sides working together which is what has been the problem the past 8 years. If anyone as an American disagrees with that than there is no point of discussion. I am more of a realsist and would rather point my finger at the whole group rather say it's one person fault. I will be outspoken like this forever because I strongly belive in what I say and as an American I believe we need to do what is right for our country regardless if it takes more work. I believe we as Americans should not take so much for granted because as it is now, coming back to bite us on the ass. I promise everyone I try not to talk out of my ass ever and what I say or post, I have definetly thought about it.

[Mr Clean]

That's just ridiculous. If a priest happened to be a car enthusiast and wrote a manual on how to rebuild an engine, would that be a religion-based document? No.

And seriously, don't give me your "holding hand" crap Clean. I have read what others have written. You are the only one insisting it's a religious document.

You are evading the facts. You can't give an example of any passage that has religious overtones, because there are none other then the Constitution saying you have the right to believe what you want, and that government cannot impose religious beliefs upon you.

Just because you say "It HAS to be considered a religious document" doesn't make it a religious document. You'll have to do better than that.

I said holding your hand because, as usual, I have to explain things multiple times.

I never said any passage has "religious overtones". Read my post again. But, since you bring it up, you could cite "do ordain and establish". "Blessing" is another word with strong religious roots. Regardless, that isn't the argument. Read about Kohlberg's stages of moral development if you like, or morality as it relates to the super-ego as Freud wrote about. There are interesting articles about social transmission as well.

There is plenty of material available, written in a much more concise and professional form than I do. What you will read and learn is that morality developed with religious influences cannot be put aside no matter what you do.

[Mr Clean]

I agree with what you say.
However, all I'm trying to say or prove is that you can't invest too much in any belief. It's dangerous and if you consider the negative impacts it may have on individuals and society then you can see why we need NEW beliefs and ideas to go along with a constantly changing world.

I see your point. I assume you would agree that holds for any belief, religious or otherwise. Any idea, belief, doctrine, or whatever it could be called can have negative affects or turn into something dangerous if given the right influences.

I think a lot of the "new" ideas are just rehashed versions of the old ideas. I don't know of any specific documentation on it, but I would bet there are really just a few basic root forms that you could boil all the various ideas down into...

[Pure_Evil]

It is my opinion Obama is a Radical Muslim lying about being a Christian

I would like to know what exactly you're are basing that opinion off of.

McCain is best suited for the Presidency, my issues are his stance on the war, his running mate is HORRIBLE, the lower middle class needs relief, and the republicans will NOT provide ANY. This feed the rich and it'll trickle down to us poor is right up there with "I'll only put the tip in"

[Mr Clean]

This feed the rich and it'll trickle down to us poor is right up there with "I'll only put the tip in"

I used to use that quote, but it was under slightly different circumstances...

[ME BIGGD01]

I would like to know what exactly you're are basing that opinion off of.

McCain is best suited for the Presidency, my issues are his stance on the war, his running mate is HORRIBLE, the lower middle class needs relief, and the republicans will NOT provide ANY. This feed the rich and it'll trickle down to us poor is right up there with "I'll only put the tip in"


Pure you hit the nail on the head to which is the reason I choose Republican. I think you have it it wrong though because you and I being middle class do not fit the bill for any relief. You see it's not that we will have it easier but considering we are middle class and blue collar, we have atleast a chance to make money because we work. Don't think for anys econd you are considered less a class that needs help. Why do you think most of your tax dollars go to minorities who are not even citizens of this country. Why do you think we will pay full price for college while some one who is not white will most likely get a huge discount, grants and maybe free. Look at who rns your state and see what they are doing regarding your tax money and the laws they past that screw you for being white as if you did anything worng in the past that grants everyone not white some sort of benefit. It's not racial at all but it is fact. Nobody speaks up and then they blame the President who actually cut taxes and gave breaks which were taken by another tax from your Democratic state. If you think you will be better off with a Democrat, just look at their plan and compare. Obama's plan wont work unless anyone who makes over 42,000 a year pays more taxes. Last time I checked you need to make atleast 75,000 in NY to be able to eat and trust me it's store brand cereal. People need to look at all their tax money they pay and who is the one responsible. I know it's not George Bush raising sales tax and or property tax where I live.

My argument is it's not all the President!!!!!!!

As far as McCains stance on the war what is it you don't like about it? I would like to hear your answer and will follow up wiht comment;) .

[Gun Element]

I am leaning much toward the Obama-Biden Ticket. Ideologically, I am more in tune with the Dems then the Repubs (although I don't strongly identify as a democrat). One major motivation is this as suggested by my mom and repeated in an issue of Foriegn Affairs Magazine lol
-Obama being younger has the possibility for new flexibilty and more open ideas then his more established former rivals and current competitor. He's hardly perfect mind you, but seems like he could be a good shot in the arm in the White House.
-Biden would be an excellent Right Hand man for Obama particularly in navigating the complexities of the many foriegn policy debacles we face.


McCain-Palin; I was more open to McCain earlier in the election cycle when he really established himself as different from the established Republicans and wasn't afraid to show it. However, after securing the nomination he just can't do that.
-One thing that bugs me is supporting the Bush Tax Cuts, I don't have a lotta wieght for this argument scince I am no economist, but something about just doesn't sit well with having McCain towing the Republican party line on economics.
-Foriegn Policy: McCain does have experience in foriegn policy legislation. However, I think he has EXAGGERATED his whole "I served in war, I know how to attain victory schtick. I see him as sometimes maybe too hawkish when he need not be (Iran on certain points, the Russian-Georgian conflict especially). His "hell or high water" stance on Iraq also irks me, cause he's relying on that faulty "we needed to take out Saddam cause it was the right thing to do" rhetoric.
-Palin meh, she seems like a nice lady, rather scincire. She (to me) is just a figure head for the Christian right, who has no real weight. I hardly think she will be terribly influential in the White House personally. Also she's overplaying her "teflon reformer" angle. I don't mind if she has some skeletons in her closet, I don't wish for a sage in the White House (cause you aint gonna get one). But the fact that she is at least SEEN as "a heartbeat away" from the presidency is troubling. Cause while Obama is young he at least has been on the national stage and has proved effective, and Biden is a vet. Palin has no natinonal govt. experience and NO FORIEGN POLICY EXPERIENCE.


Debates should be knock down drag out fun (cue FOX NFL SUNDAY music)

let the hate begin

[Nitro]

"Scientists studying voters in the US say our political views may be an integral part of our physical makeup.

Their research, published in the journal Science, indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda.

Those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm

Something to take into account. If all this warmongering combined with use of fear tactics is simply to utilize the fear of the commoners in order to further their own treasonous agenda, one has to realize that the way things are, are because of peoples' irrational fear of the lies that politicians are pushing as truth.

MY only qualm with this study is that the "right wing" as the study dictates, is obviously alluding to the neoconservative takeover of the true right wing, which has been conservatism in times past but that was a long time ago. The true right wing, like supported by Ron Paul, Jesse Ventura and others, is not what the "right wing" is called these days. Media hypnotizers such as the disgraceful Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are examples of talking heads for the neoconservative movement. If you people were true conservatives, you would never in a million years support McBush. A true conservative does not allow themselves to get into debt, for instance. I have made it of the utmost importance to never be in debt and that leads to a less stressful and more peaceful life. Conservatives do not go out on pork barrel shopping sprees, shelling out billions of dollars of tax payers' money to buy securities and investment firms from the private sector. Everything is topsy turvy and it makes one very agitated to see how annoyingly ignorant most people are of the NOCHANGE that they are in fact, the cause of since they elect (rather than "select") demons that bring about this regression of society.

[ME BIGGD01]

Gun Element, I think youhave been paying attention to your Pokeman cars to much. You are entitled to what ever but your reasons make no sense and your mom does not either. A shot in the arm? LOL, tell her to smarten up rather than taking a chance on who runs the country. You or her have yet to provide any evidence on either party and you can quote me to your mother.

You should aslo have more respect for people who not only served for this country but had witnessed being a POW. You see you are too young to understand and your generation is too naive to reality. IF you knew anything about Vietnam it was screwed up because Politics got involved with it. If you wonder what McCain means when he says he served, he is regarding the BS that prevents us from winning just like Vietnam. I take it your Mom or Dad has never served the country because you would have been taught and honor those that had.

I laugh at you all with your reasons and your excuses.

[Grimmy]

I like pie!

[OUTLAWS CHICO]

Alot of people here live in the USA and a few don't. I do live here and to put it to you in a way that maybe you can respect.
I have a family that I love with all my heart and to choose a president of the USA to protect my family I have to say do I choose a person that has served our country and seen the worst that can be delt to a human and lost so much, but now wants to run our country. If obama had served then I would have more respect for him,but he didn't Mccain suffered to protect the US so in my opinion when he has to send our guys to war he sends them with more knowledge than any man ever to run for president. My family does not need obama I do feel confort in my heart and mind that Mccain will do what is right and give it his all for my family. And I have never felt this strong for any presidentall candidate in all my years !!!!!!!!

[Pure_Evil]

My reply for BIGG's


Mccain believes we can install democracy in Iraq, I feel that's foolish, the surrounding countries wont allow it.

Time to start getting out, we can protect this country without being in Iraq.

[ME BIGGD01]

My reply for BIGG's


Mccain believes we can install democracy in Iraq, I feel that's foolish, the surrounding countries wont allow it.

Time to start getting out, we can protect this country without being in Iraq.


While I agree that I feel their way is no way like ours and we can not change their beliefs or should I say culture. I honestly don't think that is what we are doing.

Lets look at that though and Pure, I understand exact;y what you are saying. What if we can show them they can live in a peaceful environment? We can scream all we want how corrupt our Govenrment is and it's true but compared to these we look like saints. If the judgement is called upon on how we thik or feel, I beleive that during the Saddam era people there had it worst and now some will claim it is worst now but the truth is even for our country it was hell trying to become what we had become.

Yes there are bad countries all around Iraq. This makes it even more important and Geaoorge Bush said so that it will eventually effect the other countries neighboring Iraq. That is the big picture and at at times I think Americans are thinking so what, as long as it does not effect us who cares. The truth is one day it will effect us as it did on 9/11. Truth be told that all these terror supporting countries need to be delt with. Iraq is such a small piece of the puzzle but from a strategic point we are better off their.

We should never think we know more than those in charge. We can have opinions but that can be far from facts. SO many are ready to turn and bash their own country which is done daily by media etc. History should show America's heart has always been for the good of the world because as much as we are called war mongers or bullies, the trith is if that was a fact we would have done much worst and taken control when it was much easier. Even today we could actually destroy any country, any known super power if needed but it is just not the American way. This country has always take the responsibility to police the world and who else is better to do so and if so why has no one ever stepped up to the plate.

IF one looks at all the problems in the world, the economy, security will appear small. We are at war much more than the average American thinks because many just think peace is always an option or does not cost anything. There is no price higher for real peace as their is alway a villain or many working together to bring down the one nation who had the most control and those who support real peace.

Everyone keeps taking about Aghanistan but does anyone belive that is the root of the problem? I mean Pure, you said it yourself with all those neighboring countries it is impossible. With that comment, you have finally began to understand a little bit where I come from but the difference is I beleive it needs to be fixed and we need to hit hard on all nations that are part of the axis of evil. DOing nothing makes the enemies stronger just like Iran where there are people that belive still that sanctions hurt these countries. We need to act like the Godfather and bring order to the world and yes it wil be through death because that is indeed the only way to get the point across.

So we leave Iraq and what do you think happens? We send more troops over to Agfhanistan, do you think that fixes the problem? If up to me I would send a clear message to Pakistan as well and hell send troops there. It needs to be done because it will get worst. These nations will never be peacefull to us really unless we force the issue. I have said it almost every year since I have been part of GM and still stand on it. America needs to do a real shock and Awe. Stop the political Bullshit and get the job done. We do not need to put boots on the ground. We have the technology to force the enemy down and give up. I would tell the world no more sanctions after the 3rd. The sanctions are not working on Iran as they did not work for Saddam. Tell the world Iran has one week to give up all nuclear work or they will be eliminated and they will regret. Give that week and on during it position all strategies to accomplish mission. Warn all nations to leave Iran as they may become part of the massacre. Also warn any nation supporting your enemy is your enemy. On the 7th day 1 hour before it actuually ends Attack at will a drop 5 atom bombs elimating every part of Iran. At the end of the day mission accomplished. I would do this to every terror run nation and also at the same time due to previous warning of the nations that support our enemy and if anything or anyone of our allies is attacked by another country, our strategic placemenets would be there to also eliminate such nation as we did with Iran. The world would be in a uproar and things would be chaotic. But eventually peace would come out of it and we would live a lot better or atleast our kids would.


We will never get rid of the roaches by killing just a few. No one says it's going to be pretty either but neither would someone you love being killed.

[Siron Ex]

America needs to do a real shock and Awe. Stop the political Bullshit and get the job done. We do not need to put boots on the ground. We have the technology to force the enemy down and give up. I would tell the world no more sanctions after the 3rd. The sanctions are not working on Iran as they did not work for Saddam. Tell the world Iran has one week to give up all nuclear work or they will be eliminated and they will regret. Give that week and on during it position all strategies to accomplish mission. Warn all nations to leave Iran as they may become part of the massacre. Also warn any nation supporting your enemy is your enemy. On the 7th day 1 hour before it actuually ends Attack at will a drop 5 atom bombs elimating every part of Iran. At the end of the day mission accomplished. I would do this to every terror run nation and also at the same time due to previous warning of the nations that support our enemy and if anything or anyone of our allies is attacked by another country, our strategic placemenets would be there to also eliminate such nation as we did with Iran. The world would be in a uproar and things would be chaotic. But eventually peace would come out of it and we would live a lot better or atleast our kids would.


We will never get rid of the roaches by killing just a few. No one says it's going to be pretty either but neither would someone you love being killed.
Imho that wouldn't eliminate terror organizations but millions of innocent
civilians. Terrorists are fanatics, they are insane, you can not awe them nor can you kill (all of) them in this way.

Oh and btw im not even american, I have no idea.. :rolleyes: Im just an impartial observer

[Pure_Evil]

I think if you want to get to the root of the problem, you have to hit the Saudis, but that's cutting off our nose to spite our face. I believe we have to leave Iraq, and sweep Pakistan and Afganistan to get Bin Ladden, then leave until they need another ass beating, then blitz them and leave. Hit them the way we hit Iraq for 2-6 months then leave, they will get the idea.

[Mr Clean]

I like pie!

That's not what I heard :P LOL

[Mr Clean]

MY only qualm with this study is that the "right wing" as the study dictates, is obviously alluding to the neoconservative takeover of the true right wing, which has been conservatism in times past but that was a long time ago. The true right wing, like supported by Ron Paul, Jesse Ventura and others, is not what the "right wing" is called these days. Media hypnotizers such as the disgraceful Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are examples of talking heads for the neoconservative movement. If you people were true conservatives, you would never in a million years support McBush. A true conservative does not allow themselves to get into debt, for instance. I have made it of the utmost importance to never be in debt and that leads to a less stressful and more peaceful life. Conservatives do not go out on pork barrel shopping sprees, shelling out billions of dollars of tax payers' money to buy securities and investment firms from the private sector. Everything is topsy turvy and it makes one very agitated to see how annoyingly ignorant most people are of the NOCHANGE that they are in fact, the cause of since they elect (rather than "select") demons that bring about this regression of society.

So you are going to side with the Democrats....known for spending money and raising taxes and punishing success. They go out on pork barrel spending sprees, but that is OK because they aren't Republicans when they do it.

You just hate conservatives. Why not admit it and save us all the double-standard reading.

What I really love the most about liberals like yourself is how you point to Rush, Bill, or Sean and call them "talking heads" and so forth. You assume everyone on the right side of the aisle worships them or something. It's so insanely laughable how the liberals feel these guys are such a tremendous threat. For years there were no conservatives on the airways, but now that there are the liberals work themselves into a froth about them every chance they get. ROFL

[Grimmy]

That's not what I heard :P LOL

Is that a date? o.O :P

[ME BIGGD01]

Is that a date? o.O :P


Too funny Bro:thumbs:

[Nitro]

So you are going to side with the Democrats....known for spending money and raising taxes and punishing success. They go out on pork barrel spending sprees, but that is OK because they aren't Republicans when they do it.

You just hate conservatives. Why not admit it and save us all the double-standard reading.

What I really love the most about liberals like yourself is how you point to Rush, Bill, or Sean and call them "talking heads" and so forth. You assume everyone on the right side of the aisle worships them or something. It's so insanely laughable how the liberals feel these guys are such a tremendous threat. For years there were no conservatives on the airways, but now that there are the liberals work themselves into a froth about them every chance they get. ROFL
So I'm a liberal now? HAHAHAHAHAHA

No, I don't hate conservatives and I don't side with democrats. That pathetic partisan divide is disgusting and completely fabricated, meant ot divide the people of this former republic. You are not a conservative by any means if you support any of the republicrat neocons being put out before the serfs to elect, why do you not understand that? They are the farthest thing imaginable from anything deemed conservative. Just look at the current "conservative" administration as an example. The Demoncrats are just as terrible since they are just another side of the same coin but the reason I didn't talk about them is because they aren't hypocrites of the same magnitude as these fake conservatives. That is why it is a big deal with a Republican gets into a sex scandal or spends gratuitous amounts of money prostituting their own selfish agendas, because they are being hypocrites in that sense, which is deemed far worse than the contrary.

Ultimately, it's an ego issue that people have that creates this unsound left-right paradigm.

I don't understand why you people will always bicker and argue about this pathetic left-right fauxity. Liberal is right brain orientation and conservative is left brain orientation and since we have both, but only dominant in one, we are both and to ensure a healthy nation, both sides must be equally representated and united, not discriminated and separated. That's why I would have loved to see a Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich ticket...two diametrically opposed political views, as it seem, but that could be the only way to have any balance in this so-called democracy. Democracies don't work anyway, and for the most part, has collapsed some time ago so it is really a moot point ot argue anyway and I have to go assist this guy from the state department now. something about the un ambassador dropping by lol. peace

[Mr Clean]

Is that a date? o.O :P

ROFL

[Mr Clean]

So I'm a liberal now? HAHAHAHAHAHA

No, I don't hate conservatives and I don't side with democrats. That pathetic partisan divide is disgusting and completely fabricated, meant ot divide the people of this former republic. You are not a conservative by any means if you support any of the republicrat neocons being put out before the serfs to elect, why do you not understand that? They are the farthest thing imaginable from anything deemed conservative. Just look at the current "conservative" administration as an example. The Demoncrats are just as terrible since they are just another side of the same coin but the reason I didn't talk about them is because they aren't hypocrites of the same magnitude as these fake conservatives. That is why it is a big deal with a Republican gets into a sex scandal or spends gratuitous amounts of money prostituting their own selfish agendas, because they are being hypocrites in that sense, which is deemed far worse than the contrary.

Ultimately, it's an ego issue that people have that creates this unsound left-right paradigm.

I don't understand why you people will always bicker and argue about this pathetic left-right fauxity. Liberal is right brain orientation and conservative is left brain orientation and since we have both, but only dominant in one, we are both and to ensure a healthy nation, both sides must be equally representated and united, not discriminated and separated. That's why I would have loved to see a Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich ticket...two diametrically opposed political views, as it seem, but that could be the only way to have any balance in this so-called democracy. Democracies don't work anyway, and for the most part, has collapsed some time ago so it is really a moot point ot argue anyway and I have to go assist this guy from the state department now. something about the un ambassador dropping by lol. peace

So you aren't either, yet you again rip conservatives. Everyone seems to know what you are except for yourself...

Your brain information is incredibly simplfied and not even entirely correct btw.

Democracy doesn't work? Really. As opposed to what, socialism?

[Nitro]

Republicanism works. Democracy doesn't. Free markets break down after a whiel too, apparantly, out of greed. However, some of us know that this country is no longer a republic but some bizarre mixture of fascism and socialism (who would have thought that would ever happen?). Read the federalist papers, there's some great info there. Those masons knew how to run a government that stayed out of peoples' lives enough so that the citizens had the ability to have liberty and be in the pursuit of happiness, yet governed enough so that there would be no chaos, yet order and so that the country would not go bankrupt as it did officially after the civil war and began to exist as a corporation. Democracy has destroyed that order and created a mob rule of ignorant citizens that know next to nothing since they're so preoccupied with their of superficial and materialistic desires. The neoconservative fascism does not work either since it creates uprisings and revolts with result in anarchy and much bloodshed.

however, if i had my way, i would have the government be a republic, but with states and counties and towns more autonomous than even that, more like during the articles of confederation days. but villages who be more autonomous of a collective. in the early days of the republic of the united States, the common good was the underlying basis of the foundation of the nation rather than this rugged individualism that sprang up much much later that everyone foolishly presumes is the "american dream"

[Mr Clean]

Republicanism works. Democracy doesn't. Free markets break down after a whiel too, apparantly, out of greed. However, some of us know that this country is no longer a republic but some bizarre mixture of fascism and socialism (who would have thought that would ever happen?). Read the federalist papers, there's some great info there. Those masons knew how to run a government that stayed out of peoples' lives enough so that the citizens had the ability to have liberty and be in the pursuit of happiness, yet governed enough so that there would be no chaos, yet order and so that the country would not go bankrupt as it did officially after the civil war and began to exist as a corporation. Democracy has destroyed that order and created a mob rule of ignorant citizens that know next to nothing since they're so preoccupied with their of superficial and materialistic desires. The neoconservative fascism does not work either since it creates uprisings and revolts with result in anarchy and much bloodshed.

however, if i had my way, i would have the government be a republic, but with states and counties and towns more autonomous than even that, more like during the articles of confederation days. but villages who be more autonomous of a collective. in the early days of the republic of the united States, the common good was the underlying basis of the foundation of the nation rather than this rugged individualism that sprang up much much later that everyone foolishly presumes is the "american dream"

LOL the Masons? Have you ever read a history of those thugs? They were petty dictators bent on enforcing their will on everyone else. I can't believe you even thought of them in this discussion.

Free markets don't break down. What you are seeing is exactly what the markets are supposed to do when people make bad decisions and incur bad debt. The bailout would actually interfere with the natural progression of the markets...

If you like the federalist papers than you've no doubt read or heard of all the others from that time as well. The anti-Federalists felt that the "common good" meant something else entirely. Historians can't even agree if that phrase was meant in a political or philosophical arena. And then there are the John Adams of that time who took common good to mean something religious. Your statements almost have a taste of monarchial overtones since you don't think the "ignorant" people can run the government. You line of thought is marxist except you want a king to lead, or at least a ruling class. You were born about 300 years too late for those failed experiments...

[Pure_Evil]

Watched most of the debate last night, quite scary, one guy's not ready, the other's past his time. I was hoping one could instill some faith or inspire me just a little, instead, I got the awe crap feeling :mad:

[Mr Clean]

Watched most of the debate last night, quite scary, one guy's not ready, the other's past his time. I was hoping one could instill some faith or inspire me just a little, instead, I got the awe crap feeling :mad:

LOL You know, I think your feelings echo the general consensus from what I have read on the net today Pure...

Most people were hoping for an explosion, instead they got a fart.

[SASQUATCH]

My trip was cut short but here is something I watch not long ago and it's on Youtube now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk

This is one of many reasons why I feel this way and Matt said it best in a short interview.

[Pure_Evil]

LOL You know, I think your feelings echo the general consensus from what I have read on the net today Pure...

Most people were hoping for an explosion, instead they got a fart. :rofl: perfectly said!

[Nitro]

Do you guys realize that this bill that was just passed for this "bailout" is in fact the quickest and most sinisterly-genius coup d'etat in the history of this country? It is, by far, the saddest day in this former country and not many see it and I don't think they will until a few years down the line. This is so incredibly frightening and shocking, even I didn't expect them to create this transfer or power and change in government so fast. Makes me wonder what the hell are they scheming towards in the next few years....

and as far as this bailout is concerned, it will actually compound the problem. You are worse off with the bailout plan. The bailout doesn't stop the crash, it guarantees it, and it will be far worse. I think Marcy Kaptur had a very good speech about this in the House.

Ms. KAPTUR. Mr. Speaker, here is the latest reality game. Let's play Wall Street Bailout.

Rule one: Rush the decision. Time the game to fall in the week before Congress is set to adjourn and just 6 weeks before an historic election so your opponents will be preoccupied, pressured, distracted, and in a hurry.

Rule two: Disarm the public through fear. Warn that the entire global financial system will collapse and the world will fall into another Great Depression. Control the media enough to ensure that the public will not notice this.

Bailout will indebt them for generations, taking from them trillions of dollars they earned and deserve to keep.

Rule three: Control the playing field and set the rules. Hide from the public and most of the Congress just who is arranging this deal. Communicate with the public through leaks to media insiders. Limit any open congressional hearings. Communicate with Congress via private teleconferencing calls. Heighten political anxiety by contacting each political party separately. Treat Members of Congress condescendingly, telling them that the matter is so complex that they must rely on those few insiders who really do know what's going on.

Rule four: Divert attention and keep people confused. Manage the news cycle so Congress and the public have no time to examine who destroyed the prudent banking system that served America so well for 60 years after the financial meltdown of the 1920s.

Rule five: Always keep in mind the goal is to privatize gains to a few and socialize loss to the many. For 30 years in one financial scandal after another, Wall Street game masters have kept billions of dollars of their gain and shifted their losses to American taxpayers. Once this bailout is in place, the greed game will begin again.

But I have a counter-game. It's called Wall Street Reckoning. Congress shouldn't go home to campaign. It should put America's accounts in order.

To Wall Street insiders, it says ``no'' on behalf of the American people. You have perpetrated the greatest financial crimes ever on this American republic. You think you can get by with it because you are extraordinarily wealthy and the largest contributors to both Presidential and congressional campaigns in both major parties, but you are about to be brought under firm control.

First, America doesn't need to bail you out, it needs to secure the real assets and property, not your paper, that means the homes and properties of hardworking Americans who are about to lose their homes because of your mortgage greed. There should be a new job for regional Federal Reserve Banks. We want no home foreclosed if a serious work-out agreement can be put into place. And if you don't do it, we want a notarized statement by a Federal Reserve official that they tried and failed.

Second, taxpayers should directly gain any equity benefits that may flow from this historic bailout. We want the American people to get first priority in taking ownership of the institutions that want to pass their toxic paper onto the taxpayers.

Third, before any bailouts for Wall Street, America needs major job creation to rebuild our major infrastructure. America needs assets, not paper. We need working assets.

Fourth, the time for real financial regulatory change is now, not next year. A modernized Glass Eagle Act must be put in place. We need to reestablish locally-owned community savings banks across this country and create within the Justice Department a fully funded unit to prosecute every single high-flying thief whose fraud and criminal acts created this debacle and then forced their disgorgement of assets going back 15 years.

Fifth, any refinancing must return a major share of profits to a new Social Security and Medicare lockbox, where the monies can go to pay for a dignified and assured retirement for every American. This Member isn't voting for a penny of it. Those who created and profited from this game of games must be brought to justice. The assets they stole must be returned to the American taxpayers, right down to the tires on their Mercedes.

Mr. Speaker, I ask my colleagues to join me in cosponsoring my bill to create an independent commission to investigate these well-heeled wrongdoers. Real reform now, or nothing.

oh, and Clean, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, the definition of "liberal" (4) is: "Unprejudiced, open-minded; esp. free from bigotry or unreasonable prejudice in favour of traditional opinions or established institutions, open to the reception of new ideas." I imagine that means "Conservative" is the opposite. So the conclusion of this research (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-sweeney/theres-no-arguing-with-co_b_126805.html) should surprise nobody.

I'm just sayin...

[Mr Clean]

I don't like the bailout either Nitro. I think Wall Street also needs a market correction free of government intrusion. However, I do think it prudent to point out a few errors in your post.

On Rule 1: Since you obviously believe in conspiracy theories, and I don't, we will never agree on this, but no one person or small group of people can control the economy so that they could time this bailout for the last week of Congress. It is utterly impossible for that kind of organized control to occur without a HUGE number of people involved, all of which have to be completely loyal about it and not spill the beans...please. I understand the attraction that conspiracy theorists get from these things because it makes them feel like they "know" something they aren't supposed to, but put on a pair of reality glasses before you go believing this stuff.

On Rule 2: Again, control the media? All of them? Same prescription on those glasses.

On Rule 3: Control control control. Do you see what you are basing your whole argument on?

On Rule 4: The banking system did the same thing in the 1980s with the Savings & Loan debacle. The financial sector in this country has, unfortunately, been there done that before...

In general, I understand the economics behind some of this. This 700B is not only going to help the richest people. Every mutual fund, IRA, 401k, pension plan, money market account, CD, etc have money invested in these crap debt vehicles. Here is the important thing: WE WILL ALL PAY FOR THIS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER! Be it a bailout or loss of value in our investments.

Too many of these investment professional made one or more of three critical errors: They didn't know what was tied into this stuff, they didn't realize the risk associated with it, or (the worst one) they did know the first two but didn't think the housing bubble was a danger and chose to ignore it.

I am against the bailout because all of us, myself included, should feel the pain from this and learn our lesson. I should spend more time understanding what my mutual fund is investing in, maybe read a book on investment risk, so forth and so on.

I agree with your conclusion on the bailout, but I take a completely different path to reach that conclusion...one with logic and economics, not paranoid conspiracy.

[Nitro]

Fair enough :)

As far as financial institutions, I'd recommend Fidelity, as this is the investment firm I use (because of a few fundamental reasons), and your money is protected up to 500,000 USD, but that shouldn't matter anytime soon since they're rock solid. If you're interested: https://www.fidelity.com/

oh, and for the record, you won't believe where the $700 billion figure came from.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/bailout-plan.html

[Nitro]

GREAT NEWS!!!

The country was not destroyed today! The bailout/coup did NOT pass! This is a historic day that should be celebrated. Time to get out the champagne folks! Dow falling like a rock, gold skyrocketing, and my bank account just got a whole lot bigger :D

[EXEcution]

As far as financial institutions, I'd recommend Fidelity, as this is the investment firm I use (because of a few fundamental reasons)
Those reasons being the fact that it's not run by aliens?

[Nitro]

Those reasons being the fact that it's not run by aliens?

No...hahaha

It's because the international bankers that run it are very wealthy and I'm talking trillions of dollars here babyy! You'll never see the richest folks on those "richest people in the world" lists ever XD


annnywhooo, best f*cking day ever today I'm so happy it's not even describable.

[Mr Clean]

oh, and for the record, you won't believe where the $700 billion figure came from.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/bailout-plan.html


LOL nice find.

[Pure_Evil]

:rofl:now that's funny! and it got shot down too, market dropped greatly today!

[JIMINATOR]

GREAT NEWS!!!

The country was not destroyed today! The bailout/coup did NOT pass! This is a historic day that should be celebrated. Time to get out the champagne folks! Dow falling like a rock, gold skyrocketing, and my bank account just got a whole lot bigger :D
enjoy the money, because the rich are pulling their money out of banks and buying up t-bills at almost 0% interest rate, simply for the assurance that they will eventually get their money back. banks are losing the money they need to function, world markets have frozen all credits between banks, the lifeblood of the entire world has turned to ice. Companies will not be able to get money to grow or continue to operate, jobs will be lost, consumers will stop buying goods and the world will continue to spiral into a recession. On a positive note it should take care of the illegal immigration problem that everyone here likes to complain about (when they leave to find jobs). Our economy has been founded on a lot of assumptions, one of them being that we are too big to fail. Well, that is not necessarily the case. Now we have obama running for office, who is a liberal dumbass, and palin, who is a conservative dumbass. Oh, there is also McCain, but I question how long he will be around, I would have voted for him except for his running mate.

[Asian Invasian]

1.2 trillion loss in the stocks today.. nuff said.

[Wiper]

Ahh well here ain't that well either:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/business/worldbusiness/30euro.html


Though I do believe if a bank doesn't fall it will eventually make profit again which equals rising of the stocks = government profit :P

[Pure_Evil]

I think Mccain will last 4 years, but how sharp will his mind be?

[SASQUATCH]

Whoever wins the presidency has his hands full because not only is Israel preparing for war but the Russians are making their mark and we are in for another Cold War. The news has been so busy with the Middle East and the market but things are happening almost too quietly with other problems that we seem to be ignoring. We are in for some difficult times ahead besides economics.

I wonder if we may-be too late to resolve these problems that are becoming to a point of no return.

[Nitro]

1.2 trillion loss in the stocks today.. nuff said.

and most of that was gained back today. these numbers mean nothing anyway, compared to the 1 quadrillion dollar derivatives house of cards

[SASQUATCH]

US population is at about 304,826,201.

We are at $9,948,931,048,324.35 in Debt and it continues to rise at the rate of about 2.56 billion per day. If you do your math that is each citizen’s sharing this debt at about $32,638.04.

The national debt may push to the highest level since 1954, and economists estimate and all time high possibly exceeding $1 trillion next year.

We are in for a long ride to resolve this problem and the next president, which again I still believe will only serve one term will only make a small impact and the people want results quickly and that isn’t going to happen.

[Mr Clean]

US population is at about 304,826,201.

We are at $9,948,931,048,324.35 in Debt and it continues to rise at the rate of about 2.56 billion per day. If you do your math that is each citizen’s sharing this debt at about $32,638.04.

The national debt may push to the highest level since 1954, and economists estimate and all time high possibly exceeding $1 trillion next year.

We are in for a long ride to resolve this problem and the next president, which again I still believe will only serve one term will only make a small impact and the people want results quickly and that isn’t going to happen.

Yes, we were all going to be owed by Japan back in the 80s too...how'd that work out for all those doom and gloomers?

Check the econ news people. The bulk of the US economy is doing fairly well. That doesn't mean we aren't slowing, but we definitely are nowhere close to the Great Depression. Consumer confidence went up last month, so did the manufacturing data. Oil continues to fall. The layoff numbers that came out yesterday were way smaller than estimates.

The housing and auto sectors (6% of the economy) are the dead weights right now, plus the added irrational fear about this bailout. I will grant you the credit situation among banks got worse this week too, which can be bad for lines of credit for businesses of all sizes.

We are in an economic downturn, which by the end of the year will probably be an official recession. Big deal. They happen. Keep your heads, leave your investments alone, and keep working hard. If you like the free market system then rides like this are going to happen...

[Nitro]

Recessions and depressions only happen when the money's only value is the one that people give it, by having either more or less faith that the currency is worth as much as it says it is. We can eliminate recessions and depressions altogether is we had sound money and not the current fiat currency. If these paper receipts from the federal reserve are not backed by something that can truly be called a money, such as gold, silver, palladium, or some other rare commodity that can't just be printed 24/7 and thus no inflation, then we'll never have another mess like this again. Also, it will literally eliminate gratuitous spending and would be forced to be very conservative in their spending. The war in Iraq would have never occured. The structure of the whole monetary system has to be restructured, I think, in order to fix this. Why keep a monetary system that you absolutely know will create bipolar reactions in the economy ever few years?

[Death Engineer]

This is going to make for some great investment opportunities if you time your purchases right... Granted, it would have to be money you're willing to completely lose. But that's essentially the only money you should have in stocks anyways.

[JIMINATOR]

the bulk of the economy doing well.... that is a little misleading. lots of sectors are doing well because the cheap dollar has made exports to the rest of the world attractive. My wife is in the industry and she says that ships are overbooked. But the recession has spread to other countries. The euro has dropped considerably to the dollar as foreign investors are looking for "stable" investments, those being treasury notes. The exports are going to slow. Anyway hopefully I am wrong about everything, as that will make for a more pleasant world. :)

[SASQUATCH]

the bulk of the economy doing well.... that is a little misleading. lots of sectors are doing well because the cheap dollar has made exports to the rest of the world attractive. My wife is in the industry and she says that ships are overbooked. But the recession has spread to other countries. The euro has dropped considerably to the dollar as foreign investors are looking for "stable" investments, those being treasury notes. The exports are going to slow. Anyway hopefully I am wrong about everything, as that will make for a more pleasant world. :)

:thumbs:

[SASQUATCH]

Yes, we were all going to be owed by Japan back in the 80s too...how'd that work out for all those doom and gloomers?



LMAO

[SASQUATCH]

I will grant you the credit situation among banks got worse this week too, which can be bad for lines of credit for businesses of all sizes.





It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

[EXEcution]

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

That's a pretty broad generalization. What people? Lower-working class? I mean there are plenty of people that DO understand the system and the fact that recessions DO happen and the economy will rebound eventually. What kind of revolution are you calling for? Marx's idea didn't seem to pan out too well.

[SASQUATCH]

EXEcution it was not intentionally toward us but the corruption.

[Nitro]

Dianne Feinstein said that out of 95,000 phone calls and emails her office received, 85,000 were against the bailout, but she said she knew what was best for her constituents and still voted YES for the bill. They used to hang people like that in this country for treason.

When will these people be convicted of treason already? Did I mention Bush is a relative of the infamous traitor Benedict Arnold? It's madness.

What do they want to do to fix the problem with all this credit? Throw more credit at it and hope the problem goes away! It won't go away, it will create a depression and inflation and your paper receipts they rediculously call money will be worthless once people stop believing in its imaginary worth and pre-Hitler Germany will happen in America, when kids would build walls out of the fiat currency.

[FUS1ON]

Did I mention Bush is a relative of the infamous traitor Benedict Arnold? It's madness.


When you post stuff like that, you lose creditability. I'm not debating if it's true or not, the fact that they are seperated by however many generations and you think that they still share the same traits is madness.

[Mr Clean]

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system

Oh, I don't disagree about that Sas. The level of economic, monetary, and fiscal knowledge in this country is pretty pathetic.

[Nitro]

When you post stuff like that, you lose creditability. I'm not debating if it's true or not, the fact that they are seperated by however many generations and you think that they still share the same traits is madness.

OF course I don't think they can share the same traits, as the genetics are so far apart that's a rediculous statement. I post it more for curiosity's sake and to show I'm not just bashing Feinstein, a lib, or Bush, a neocon, but anyone who does something against the common good of the country.

[EXEcution]

When you post stuff like that, you lose creditability. I'm not debating if it's true or not, the fact that they are seperated by however many generations and you think that they still share the same traits is madness.

Exactly. Again Nitro is rambling about conspiracy theory. Get over yourself. Believing in such things is akin to being overtly religious. Anyway we're all related somehow.

What exactly do the American people need to know about fiscal and monetary policy that will have a direct impact on what decisions they make. It is clear that we have nothing backing our money and the Fed uses it's monetary policy to even out the economy when a recession or expansion is occurring at a heightened rate. The government helps keep things in control. Sure there is a level of corruption but it is inevitable if anyone has any power. The point is things will never be perfect but that doesn't necessarily mean they will progressively be getting worse.

[Nitro]

Exactly. Again Nitro is rambling about conspiracy theory. Get over yourself. Believing in such things is akin to being overtly religious. Anyway we're all related somehow.

What exactly do the American people need to know about fiscal and monetary policy that will have a direct impact on what decisions they make. It is clear that we have nothing backing our money and the Fed uses it's monetary policy to even out the economy when a recession or expansion is occurring at a heightened rate. The government helps keep things in control. Sure there is a level of corruption but it is inevitable if anyone has any power. The point is things will never be perfect but that doesn't necessarily mean they will progressively be getting worse.

and I will say to you that your unintellectual comment on my musings being the "ramblings about conspiracy theory" show your quick belittlement and defamation of what I say, which is akin to being overtly religious, if I may use the same phrases you have used to describe me, as you close your perception of understanding to anything you prefiltered out to be wrong because of some established beliefs in your psyche.

[JIMINATOR]

www.obfuscatedreplygenerator.com

Ok, its not real, but it should be based on the prior comment

[EXEcution]

and I will say to you that your unintellectual comment on my musings being the "ramblings about conspiracy theory" show your quick belittlement and defamation of what I say, which is akin to being overtly religious, if I may use the same phrases you have used to describe me, as you close your perception of understanding to anything you prefiltered out to be wrong because of some established beliefs in your psyche.

There's no defamation. You have no name in the intellectual field to defamate. Your are basing everything you say off of what someone else has written. Furthermore, I base everything I say off of how I personally feel about it along with some understanding of history and politics along with intellectual thought throughout the 20th century. Everything you say has root in some sort of conspiracy theory and I will only refer back to my Alan Moore quote.

I do not believe anyone is in control, people don't know what the world will be like in 5-10 years we can only make assumptions. Nothing is predetermined except for the fact that you and I will die someday.

[Mr Clean]

What exactly do the American people need to know about fiscal and monetary policy that will have a direct impact on what decisions they make. It is clear that we have nothing backing our money and the Fed uses it's monetary policy to even out the economy when a recession or expansion is occurring at a heightened rate. The government helps keep things in control. Sure there is a level of corruption but it is inevitable if anyone has any power. The point is things will never be perfect but that doesn't necessarily mean they will progressively be getting worse.

I wasn't sure if you were making a point about it, or just mentioning it, but I wuld not agree that there is nothing backing our money.

As to your first sentence, how about the difference between an adjustable and fixed rate? A lot of people are in a mess because they signed a mortgage document without knowing what it meant...

[Mr Clean]

I do not believe anyone is in control, people don't know what the world will be like in 5-10 years we can only make assumptions. Nothing is predetermined except for the fact that you and I will die someday.

Total agreement there :thumbs:

[Sirc]

So many political experts here. I'm no political expert, but I do know it is bad politics that got us where we are, and bad politics will continue as long as any candidate has the support of either the democratic or republican parties. Neither of them seem to be able to exercise common sense. Anyone that I have ever thought that made any sense never had a shot at the presidency because of the enormous machine that is our federal government.

It's fine though. Things have a way of balancing themselves out naturally. I think the "change" that everyone is spouting about will come one way or another, eventually. I don't think Nitro's revolution theory is far fetched at this point. At some point, the government is going to be seen as being a cancer, and the common people will rebel. And the government will be dealing with a country that has a rather heavily armed civilian population. ;-)

I'm betting that within the next 10 years things are going to get very interesting indeed.

[SASQUATCH]

The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for the multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States.

They will rule the future…

[SASQUATCH]

I'm betting that within the next 10 years things are going to get very interesting indeed.


I think it will be a lot sooner than that and I think the possibility the Iran war will happen before the inauguration. I am hoping this will not happen or anytime soon.


Israeli have been asking for more military aid like the F22 fighters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0CI5uPBnt0

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0CI5uPBnt0)
America cannot be peacemakers or policy of whatever Israeli government happens to be in power at the moment. That is the essential fact that must be faced in order to find any hope for peace between Iran and Israel.

If you guys ever have the time, please do so I recommend reading this book by Zbigniew Brzezinski former National Security adviser and the title is The Grand Chess Board.

[EXEcution]

While it's true that anything can happen before and after the next president is chosen I would strongly advise people to take a rational approach as opposed to replying on far fetched theories. Look at history, look at facts. We've been at war before, people have been reluctant about trusting the government.

The negative sentiment after the Nixon scandal and Vietnam can still be felt today along with the general public distrust of the federal government, the presidency, and anyone who holds a position of authority.

There have been recessions before. That is how the economy works. Hopefully in a few months everything will be in full swing and there will be harsh repercussions imposed on those who's greed corrupted the markets.

Beliefs are powerful things, be careful in what you believe and never let your beliefs overcome your own intelligence and rationale.

[SASQUATCH]

A missive US military budget has been passed, $600 billion.
Admiral Fallon resigns and he is one of few who don’t believe we should attack Iran.This is a big blow because he plays a major role in their private talks with the leaders and a very respectable and persuasive Admiral in war fair. Majority of congress and leaders believe that Iran poses a threat and that we need to go in and stop Iran by taking military action and Israel again is preparing and will not tolerate it.

US Military exercise have been going on in the pass few months, and not long ago the Israeli conducted a mass military air offensive scenario.

History, speaks for itself because this very similar action was also taken with Iraq, and behold Iraq was attacked. This is not to say it will happen but the possibilities are much greater now than ever before. We are close for this to happen and I am hoping that we find some solution soon before it is too late and this is why this statement I said is important below. Some say that by putting more suction toward Iran would only make matter worse for them to prepare for war or actions rather than continue more talks with them and work with them for trades for better interest. The reason this was said was nothing has been said about working a way for interest but only what you hear by putting more suction toward Iran. If Iran is going to do this I would suggest to consider working with them of some type of trade or investment for them to prosper as well as for every other nation instead of making more demands on suctions because it hasn’t been working, in fact it has only inflated the problem because nothing good has been affective for Iran to consider. I would think just to try it and if it doesn’t work with every way of exhausting this problem than I can see this to happen and that we tried every measure without Israeli making demands and persuading our governments to attack. Again this is why I said this below I can’t making any clearer than what I said below.

--------------------------------
“America cannot be peacemakers or policy of whatever Israeli government happens to be in power at the moment. That is the essential fact that must be faced in order to find any hope for peace between Iran and Israel.” This includes US btw too.
---------------------------------

Israel receives over 3 billion dollars support by US which is more than any other country in the world and yet they are a rich country. WHY? Some will say they are our allies and that they hold an important interest and some would say is because our government is being persuaded, which is another topic that is very sensitive because of the Jewish population in America. The statement above tells you that, which is why I said it for others to understand what I mean without being favor toward Israel but to work with a solution by going back to the table with Iran again but this time find a better approach because so far nothing has been working but only threads toward Iran and implementing more suction.


If it’s going to happen, the attack on Iran, it will happen during the holidays like around December before Bush leaves office.

You Said this Execution - Beliefs are powerful things, be careful in what you believe and never let your beliefs overcome your own intelligence and rationale.

Agree but my take on this statement is never over look the possibilities but it doesn’t mean I believe what conspiracy that’s been going on but keep my options open.

Where there is power and money, there is corruption and history has proven that over the years as far back as thousands of year. This is nothing new about corruption and persuading governments etc, but we need to draw a line and prevent this from going any further before it is too late.

My reason about this Middle East problem is because I believe this is almost like the Cuba crisis because if we do go to war against Iran not only will more terrorism will hit America but it will escalate right through our next generation for years to come but also Wars with other countries can happen and many think can turn for the worse if Iran is attacked.

Well i know this is more for the presidential discussion but if nothing happens when Bush is gone the next president will still need to deal with this and can not be ruled out for a possible war that can get out of hand.

[ME BIGGD01]

I laugh at many of you, and your views. At this point I can look at what many of you pst and just laugh and see no reason to even bother to argue. I will simply laugh at the comments and posts made from here are in. I really believe the way some of you think your rights should be taken away to vote.

Rgeardless, I thought you all would enjoy this clip I got off of Drudge reports site. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUEQz5dltmI

Again I laugh at many of you because you fail to see what the big picture is. I bet after many of you lose your job if Obama wins you would probably still blame Bush. I will probably laugh then also and eat a nice dinner with desert while some of you suffer to pay your bills.

[Pure_Evil]

LOL..... If anyone loses their job after Obama wins in the next 4 years, they can just blame the Bush administration just like the republicans blamed Clinton for everything that went wrong the 1st 4 years of Bush :rolleyes:













:rofl::wave::rofl:

[Nitro]

I laugh at many of you, and your views. At this point I can look at what many of you pst and just laugh and see no reason to even bother to argue. I will simply laugh at the comments and posts made from here are in. I really believe the way some of you think your rights should be taken away to vote.

Rgeardless, I thought you all would enjoy this clip I got off of Drudge reports site. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUEQz5dltmI

Again I laugh at many of you because you fail to see what the big picture is. I bet after many of you lose your job if Obama wins you would probably still blame Bush. I will probably laugh then also and eat a nice dinner with desert while some of you suffer to pay your bills.

I don't think you're looking at the really, really big picture that I am, which is that things are going to be incredibly dark right before they will be the best and result in the greatest period in human history after the purge is made a la revolucion from these power addicted men and women and the entire structure of society is thrown away and replaced with a new world societal structure. It's easy to insult people about their lack of knowledge, but how can you blame them? They are forced to live in a system where they are working over 40 hours a week, then come home and turn on the little propaganda box in the corner of the room for disinformation and general dumbing down of the mind. I guess the only thing you can blame people for is their apathy, which seems like the biggest cause of the problems we have today, in my opinion.

[Mr Clean]

Since man first formulated a spoken language there was been that one person in the corner of the cave, or on the street corner, preaching about the "end". The end of society, the end of the world, the end of our souls. Someday, someone will eventually be right. But the odds that any one of you is the one that gets it right is so incredibly small it is basically zero. Millions of doomsdayers have gone to their grave waiting for the end that never came. Millions wasted their life looking for the conspiracy that didn't exist, for the plot that was never there. If this is how you want to live your life, that is your choice. But you are going to miss a lot of great stuff in the mean time...

[SASQUATCH]

I don’t believe in that mambo jumbo end of the world or Nostradamus etc.

I do know that Middle East is a problem and real and it can escalate if US, or Israeli decides to attack Iran. It doesn’t take an intelligent person to see that the Middle East is a big problem.

[SASQUATCH]

LOL..... If anyone loses their job after Obama wins in the next 4 years, they can just blame the Bush administration just like the republicans blamed Clinton for everything that went wrong the 1st 4 years of Bush :rolleyes:

:rofl::wave::rofl:

:thumbs:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again Bigg's you don't seem to be anywhere close to be a diplomatic person when posting base on issues.

I don't laugh at you Biggs I just feel sorry for you.

[Nick]

arent we close to judgement day where all people believing in some 2000 year old book are supposed to be brought to the magical disneyworld in the sky and all of us non-believers burn down here ?

[OUTLAWS high ping camper]

WASHINGTON - Jobs are vanishing at the fastest pace in more than five years with pink slips likely to keep stacking higher in the months ahead, an urgent signal the country may be careening toward a deep and painful recession just as Americans prepare to elect a new president.

Whether that's Democrat Barack Obama or Republican John McCain, one of them will be dealing with the weakest employment climate in years.

Increasingly skittish employers dropped the ax even harder in September, chopping payrolls by 159,000 — more than double the cuts made just one month before. It was the ninth straight month of job losses. A staggering 760,000 jobs have disappeared so far this year.

From: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27006622/

[Nitro]

arent we close to judgement day where all people believing in some 2000 year old book are supposed to be brought to the magical disneyworld in the sky and all of us non-believers burn down here ?

actually, judgement day was close ever since, like Clean said, there was a group of sadistic people around to say that the end of the world is coming....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_prophecies

getting back to current events, the economy is doing jsut as the Austrian school of economics predicted. That's why I think Zeitgeist Addendum couldn't come at a better time.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

[Mr Clean]

The DOW is getting hammered again today. Time to put in a buy order.

Funny, what was it about the bailout plan (sorry I refuse to call it a "rescue") that made it sound so good before it was passed that makes it "not fast enough" now? Maybe because it doesn't fix the fundamental problems of this slowdown. The list of countries with bailouts for banks and so forth keeps growing: US, Iceland, Ireland, Germany, France, Poland, Greece, Luxemberg, Italy...welcome to the global recession.

Let the medicine be dished out and the pain suffered so we can move on.

[Nitro]

Their financial system but be destroyed and a new one put in its place or else this will continue to happen throughout the rest of time and we all know that humans wil not stand for keeping the same broken monetary enslavement system of debt that currently exists and a new system will in fact take its place, I have no doubt about this.

[EXEcution]

getting back to current events, the economy is doing jsut as the Austrian school of economics predicted. That's why I think Zeitgeist Addendum couldn't come at a better time.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Just watched it. Very interesting and there is a lot of truth behind the creator's argument and solution to the modern day problems we all face.

I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who has posted in this thread or has any interest in how our monetary system really works to watch this. Almost all of this documentary is based on fact except for a few things in regards to corporations which I tend to disagree with.

[Suicidal]

Well that video thing was unbelieveably interesting, which surprised me (I dont hold attention that easy). Just like to point out one point in the movie:

"The internet is truly our savior at this time."

Thank you internet! I'm glad I don't really have any political views, because that would mean I'd have to defend them. So many fights...

[Wiper]

Didn't see the hole debate, but only taking the looks and tone of them both I fear the worst for McCain.

I heard a vibrance in his voice and physically he just come over like the most powerfull man in the world.

Obama on the otherside is in his element giving clear answers (liking them or not).

[Nitro]

Just watched it. Very interesting and there is a lot of truth behind the creator's argument and solution to the modern day problems we all face.

I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who has posted in this thread or has any interest in how our monetary system really works to watch this. Almost all of this documentary is based on fact except for a few things in regards to corporations which I tend to disagree with.

Yes, it's really good. If you want to see another film based on the monetary system and international bankers, I suggest The Money Masters. 215 minutes but well worth it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=dhvtSJGuIpLAqAKT--XFBw&q=the+money+masters

[EXEcution]

Yes, it's really good. If you want to see another film based on the monetary system and international bankers, I suggest The Money Masters. 215 minutes but well worth it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=dhvtSJGuIpLAqAKT--XFBw&q=the+money+masters

I will definitely check it out later this week. Thanks for posting it, this stuff interests me very much.

[JIMINATOR]

I watched a few minutes of one of the videos. It is actually pretty fascinating. The essence is that for every $100k of deposits a bank can loan $90k. This goes into another bank which can loan $81k, and so forth, end result being that that on that 100k $900k of loans get written (that will be 20 loan cycles). Now of that 900k, say we enter a recession, property values have dropped 20%. The total loan portfolio of all these banks has now lost 180k on a true principle of $100k. Ultimately the US economy is totally bankrupt, it is just becoming more and more apparent as these loans are failing. Kudos to the president/premier of iceland (300k people), for having the balls to say that of their economic crisis, worst case scenario is that the country is bankrupt. You will never see anyone admit that here, where taxing and spending is the solution to any problem.

[Mr Clean]

Their financial system but be destroyed and a new one put in its place or else this will continue to happen throughout the rest of time and we all know that humans wil not stand for keeping the same broken monetary enslavement system of debt that currently exists and a new system will in fact take its place, I have no doubt about this.

Nothing is perfect. Everything breaks. Nothing is foolproof.

[EXEcution]

Nothing is perfect. Everything breaks. Nothing is foolproof.

Well that's obvious. Most of the proposed ideas for fixing our financial system are far from perfect but they do a BETTER job of addressing the issue of debt and corruption than what we are currently doing.

The idea is to progressively advance society by implementing new ideas. There's always a chance that they will not work, but we can say that we tried. As people get older they accept the status quo because they have been conditioned to do so.

The fundamental fact of the issue is that money is supposed to help people conduct everyday exchanges. Money should not be used to manipulate the government or the people under that government. The problem is that people don't really understand how money works in today's world. It doesn't take an economist to understand the system and it doesn't take a genius to find flaws in that system.

[Nitro]

Well that's obvious. Most of the proposed ideas for fixing our financial system are far from perfect but they do a BETTER job of addressing the issue of debt and corruption than what we are currently doing.

The idea is to progressively advance society by implementing new ideas. There's always a chance that they will not work, but we can say that we tried. As people get older they accept the status quo because they have been conditioned to do so.

The fundamental fact of the issue is that money is supposed to help people conduct everyday exchanges. Money should not be used to manipulate the government or the people under that government. The problem is that people don't really understand how money works in today's world. It doesn't take an economist to understand the system and it doesn't take a genius to find flaws in that system.

Exactly. Money is to be a servant of the people, not the master.

[Sirc]

I said holding your hand because, as usual, I have to explain things multiple times.

I never said any passage has "religious overtones". Read my post again. But, since you bring it up, you could cite "do ordain and establish". "Blessing" is another word with strong religious roots. Regardless, that isn't the argument. Read about Kohlberg's stages of moral development if you like, or morality as it relates to the super-ego as Freud wrote about. There are interesting articles about social transmission as well.

There is plenty of material available, written in a much more concise and professional form than I do. What you will read and learn is that morality developed with religious influences cannot be put aside no matter what you do.

I read your post again. And so?

That was weak. You picked words out of context. The full sentence from the preamble is:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The word "ordain" is not used in a religious context but rather refers to people empowering themselves. Nor was the word "blessing" used in a religious context.

I think you need to go back and read you own post. You insisted that the constitution must be considered a religious document because it was written by people who believed in God. So now you're saying it's a religious document that has no religious overtones? :rolleyes:

That in fact was the argument before you decided to deflect the attention away from the point I was making. I'm sorry but morality was not invented by religious groups. It's simply common sense.

[Mr Clean]

Well that's obvious. Most of the proposed ideas for fixing our financial system are far from perfect but they do a BETTER job of addressing the issue of debt and corruption than what we are currently doing.

The idea is to progressively advance society by implementing new ideas. There's always a chance that they will not work, but we can say that we tried. As people get older they accept the status quo because they have been conditioned to do so.

The fundamental fact of the issue is that money is supposed to help people conduct everyday exchanges. Money should not be used to manipulate the government or the people under that government. The problem is that people don't really understand how money works in today's world. It doesn't take an economist to understand the system and it doesn't take a genius to find flaws in that system.


The ideas currently being floated in Washington, namely government regulation and ownership, have a long and glorious record of hurting GNP and the economy. They don't work, in country after country time and time again. People are nervous and the lawmakers fear for their titles so they have turned into populists to get the vote. At the expense of all of us.

We will pay far more in the long run if Uncle Sam gets involved like they are proposing to do...

[Mr Clean]

I watched a few minutes of one of the videos. It is actually pretty fascinating. The essence is that for every $100k of deposits a bank can loan $90k. This goes into another bank which can loan $81k, and so forth, end result being that that on that 100k $900k of loans get written (that will be 20 loan cycles). Now of that 900k, say we enter a recession, property values have dropped 20%. The total loan portfolio of all these banks has now lost 180k on a true principle of $100k. Ultimately the US economy is totally bankrupt, it is just becoming more and more apparent as these loans are failing. Kudos to the president/premier of iceland (300k people), for having the balls to say that of their economic crisis, worst case scenario is that the country is bankrupt. You will never see anyone admit that here, where taxing and spending is the solution to any problem.

Just a quick note here Jim. Mathematically this is false. The bank hasn't lost anything because the borrower still has to pay back the amount they were loaned. The value of the property does not come into play unless the bank has to foreclose and takes ownership of the property, and then only if it has to be sold at an amount less than the amount outstanding of the loan. Banks are required by law to keep a certain percentage of total loans in reserve to cover these loses, so as long as the loses do not total more than the reserves the bank experiences no financial issues.

[Mr Clean]

I read your post again. And so?

That was weak. You picked words out of context. The full sentence from the preamble is:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The word "ordain" is not used in a religious context but rather refers to people empowering themselves. Nor was the word "blessing" used in a religious context.

I think you need to go back and read you own post. You insisted that the constitution must be considered a religious document because it was written by people who believed in God. So now you're saying it's a religious document that has no religious overtones? :rolleyes:

That in fact was the argument before you decided to deflect the attention away from the point I was making. I'm sorry but morality was not invented by religious groups. It's simply common sense.

LOL. As I said regarding Blessing and Ordain, that is beside the point because that isn't the argument. Whoops, missed that whole sentence did we? Did you bother to look up the works of some of the eminent researchers I mentioned,? Apparently not. They can explain it to you better than I. You want to argue against something you have no knowledge about. No wonder you are getting crushed.

The morality=common sense comment comes from the humanist school of thought I believe. Or the group that believes morality is instinctual, I forget who those people are. Either way, that STILL doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a religious person, whose morals were framed in religious ideals, cannot keep those religious morals out of anything they do. Once again I refer you to the previously mentioned people.

[JIMINATOR]

The bank hasn't lost anything because the borrower still has to pay back the amount they were loaned. The value of the property does not come into play unless the bank has to foreclose and takes ownership of the property, and then only if it has to be sold at an amount less than the amount outstanding of the loan.
The entire crisis is because the number of loan defaults and the methods that banks used to hide them. As an example wachovia has their option arm loans. They don't report losses for 90-120 days. Meanwhile customers (70%) can opt to pay a minimal rate that does not cover interest. This 'unpaid' money goes to the balance of the mortgage, wachovia was reporting that money as 'profit' on their books. The whole thing might blow over and come to nothing. what has to happen is for home values to stabilize and also for the job market to stabilize. Once that happens then we can claim to be in a recovery. Until that point though we are just circling the drain.

i also have to disagree that morals come from religion. that would imply that athiests have no morals, i don't believe there has ever been a convincing argument for that. i also see that many religions only pay lip service to their foundations whereas the reality they teach is just fear, greed and hatred. i don't believe atheists have ever fought a war.

[Death Engineer]

Just because there is seperation of Church and State does not mean that the Constitution is not a religious document. It HAS to be considered a religious document because of the men that wrote it. Nothing else is possible.

Where is this separation of Church and State in the constitution? I don't believe it is even mentioned in the document.

I completely agree with you though on our founding fathers. Even the least conservative of them would probably make the church going folks in congress today look like pagans.

[EXEcution]

The ideas currently being floated in Washington, namely government regulation and ownership, have a long and glorious record of hurting GNP and the economy. They don't work, in country after country time and time again. People are nervous and the lawmakers fear for their titles so they have turned into populists to get the vote. At the expense of all of us.

We will pay far more in the long run if Uncle Sam gets involved like they are proposing to do...

Well if the government is in complete control of the money and the economy (communism) we will have problems. If the government is not involved in any way in the economy (anarcho-capitalism) then... well it's not clear what will happen because it hasn't been attempted afaik.

The government is supposed to compensate for the fact that people, when given the opportunity, will only act in their self-interest. If we set all human emotions aside then this is obviously true. Unless you were somehow manipulated to think and believe that you are acting in the interest of someone else — namely a diety or higher purpose of some sort — then this idea would not hold true. However, if we are to believe that we all have free will and do whatever WE want then someone is going to suffer that consequence. There's always a trade-off.

I find it very difficult to believe that if all the power rests in our hands (the hands of individuals) then things will naturally work out. From an objective standpoint there's simply too many variables and from a subjective standpoint there's simply too many crazy people. IMHO of course.

[Sirc]

LOL. As I said regarding Blessing and Ordain, that is beside the point because that isn't the argument. Whoops, missed that whole sentence did we? Did you bother to look up the works of some of the eminent researchers I mentioned,? Apparently not. They can explain it to you better than I. You want to argue against something you have no knowledge about. No wonder you are getting crushed.

The morality=common sense comment comes from the humanist school of thought I believe. Or the group that believes morality is instinctual, I forget who those people are. Either way, that STILL doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a religious person, whose morals were framed in religious ideals, cannot keep those religious morals out of anything they do. Once again I refer you to the previously mentioned people.

Ah, Mr Clean. You think you are very clever and knowledgeable, but your main talents are misdirection and smoke and mirrors, and making references to obscure manifestos without actually quoting anything specific or relevant. It's one thing to do a Google search and then scroll down to the reference section, and copy and paste. It's something else entirely to give specific examples from the texts you mention. You cannot give specific examples because you sir, are a charlatan.

You also have a talent for deflection because no matter what argument I make, you say "that's beside the point, but...", and then proceed to place your foot squarely back into your mouth.

And then you declare victory and announce that I have been crushed.

:funny:

You may fool some people here while you twist and turn, squirm and squiggle, and fabricate a web of nonsense, but you're not fooling me or anyone else that reads what you say and stops to actually think about it.

If you can't explain your own thoughts, in your own words, about a subject without supplying a reading list of books that you can't make any specific references to then you don't really understand the subject well enough to be debating about it. And you probably haven't read the books yourself.

[Sirc]

Where is this separation of Church and State in the constitution? I don't believe it is even mentioned in the document.

I completely agree with you though on our founding fathers. Even the least conservative of them would probably make the church going folks in congress today look like pagans.


Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The words "separation of church and state" is not specifically stated anywhere in the constitution. It is implicit. And honestly DE, would you want the state to have a hand in controlling religion?

[Sirc]

The morality=common sense comment comes from the humanist school of thought I believe. Or the group that believes morality is instinctual, I forget who those people are. Either way, that STILL doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a religious person, whose morals were framed in religious ideals, cannot keep those religious morals out of anything they do. Once again I refer you to the previously mentioned people.

How convenient of you to forget. You seem to know everything about everything else.

You believe that morality stems from religion. I believe that we are a societal species, and that "morality" is indeed innate. Sympathy and empathy are human traits. Religion simply put into words what we all knew in the first place. Along with a bunch of other stuff that made some people say "WTF". Those are the people that were stoned to death by religious people and their morality.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

[SASQUATCH]

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

Yup. . . He won the Nobel Prize in Physics, 1979

I have read about him on quantum gravity, electromagnetic and more.

[Nitro]

How can morality stem from religion when religion is a manmade beaurocratic institution a few thousand years ago and humans being many times older than that?

[Sirc]

How can morality stem from religion when religion is a manmade beaurocratic institution a few thousand years ago and humans being many times older than that?

Um, humans have only been around for six thousand years. And the dinosaurs taught us you nub. Let me take you by the hand and lead you to a wonderful series of books written by Imma Phulabulshitte. He explains it much better than I can. Try reading up on the subject before you speak about something you know nothing about.

[SASQUATCH]

Um, humans have only been around for six thousand years.

I think you mean 60 thousand years ago.

[Sirc]

I think you mean 60 thousand years ago.

No, I meant 6,000 years ago.

[SASQUATCH]

No, I meant 6,000 years ago.

This link is one of many that talks about it.
http://scienceline.org/2007/03/05/ask_phillips_evolution/

I don't believe modern humans were around only 6000 years ago but everyone has there own opinion.

[Sirc]

This link is one of many that talk about it.
http://scienceline.org/2007/03/05/ask_phillips_evolution/

I don't believe modern humans were around only 6000 years ago but everyone has there own opinion.

I was talking about the fundamentalist Christian creationist belief that the Earth, and everything in it, was created between 6,000-10,000 years ago.

[SASQUATCH]

I was talking about the fundamentalist Christian creationist belief that the Earth, and everything in it, was created between 6,000-10,000 years ago.

Oh ok. ;)

[EXEcution]

Let me take you by the hand and lead you to a wonderful series of books written by Imma Phulabulshitte. He explains it much better than I can. Try reading up on the subject before you speak about something you know nothing about.
DAMMIT!! I thought you were serious and googled that name before actually reading it. Well played sir(c).

Anyway, I think that the question of moral behavior and it's origin is very interesting. I don't think that God created morals, nor do I believe that people are born with them. Society is responsible for imbuing an individual with a moral compass. So one must make the inquiry into how morality and questions of right and wrong came to be.

[SASQUATCH]

I thinks it's a combination or both from Society and instinct.

The Instinct I would use an example a mother with her child and from society by history or by example.

EXEcution I don't know if I am on the right track in what you really mean but that is the best and quick answer to what I think.