Advice for a Friend

[Death Engineer]

I have a friend who is wanting a new box and is thinking about this one:

http://www.circuitcity.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=31135&sku=SYX-1040

Any thoughts? Other than ... "Circuit City is still in business???" (I know...I thought the same thing).

[JIMINATOR]

i think circuit city was bought by some company that is using the name for mail order. the system looks ok but nothing about it really radiates greatness. rather than the dual cards i'd prefer a single card like a 5850 or up. power supply sounds like a cheap piece of crap, I would not trust any unnamed "850W" psu. memory also is low end, although there is a lot of it. For intel i'd want to get it running ~3.5 GHz. You may or may not be able to do it with this system.

[Oscar(WCFD)]

i think circuit city was bought by some company that is using the name for mail order. the system looks ok but nothing about it really radiates greatness. rather than the dual cards i'd prefer a single card like a 5850 or up. power supply sounds like a cheap piece of crap, I would not trust any unnamed "850W" psu. memory also is low end, although there is a lot of it. For intel i'd want to get it running ~3.5 GHz. You may or may not be able to do it with this system.

Tiger Direct ? :cool:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=31135&Sku=SYX-1040

[Death Engineer]

Was that the same one? How much did they have it for? It's unavailable now.

[JIMINATOR]

it is the exact same content, but with different branding :)

[ME BIGGD01]

Anyone who spends over 1000 bucks for a computer today is simply crazy. There is just no need to do so. In fact, if you could build one yourself which again is extremely easy to do could spend 700-800 on a system and have it play any game available along with do some professional tasks if needed. The computer market is dying and as I said years ago, everything will be an appliance.

Buy a cheap system if you must and then buy a video card seprate to add in. Nvidia just released a newer card that is pretty powerful or even go with ATi's mid section. Don't waste money on the latest and greatest because not too much will take advantage of it. The code just isn't being written and probably wont ever because of the industry does not allow the time for it.

[SASQUATCH]

Building your own PC is really easy and cheap to do and would rather spend more money on the graphic card when it comes to games.

Pricewatch.com you may find something cheap to build your own or maybe, if your lazy, purchase one with a pretty good price to play games.

[Grimmy]

I tend to disagree with this some what. Depends on what you are buying, if it's just the tower or a whole system. Either way, the higher end stuff you buy, the longer it will last and will play anything that's out there, and still play the new stuff that isn't out yet. I think if you spend under $1k, in a year you will be saying to yourself "this is slow and I need a new one, cause it won't do XXXXXXXX". I am a firm believer in paying more now, to pay less to upgrade later. My last upgrade was around $2600, and that was well over a year ago, and current "cheapy" systems aren't even close to touching it, and it plays everything great. I won't have to upgrade this for a very long time and since using quality parts, it will probably last forever.

A cheap system with a descent vid card is just that. Buy it today, to throw it out tomorrow and keep the vid card, that's after spending countless hours on the phone with HP or Dell or whoever and well it's just not worth it, IMO.




Anyone who spends over 1000 bucks for a computer today is simply crazy. There is just no need to do so. In fact, if you could build one yourself which again is extremely easy to do could spend 700-800 on a system and have it play any game available along with do some professional tasks if needed. The computer market is dying and as I said years ago, everything will be an appliance.

Buy a cheap system if you must and then buy a video card seprate to add in. Nvidia just released a newer card that is pretty powerful or even go with ATi's mid section. Don't waste money on the latest and greatest because not too much will take advantage of it. The code just isn't being written and probably wont ever because of the industry does not allow the time for it.

[ME BIGGD01]

Grimmy, you should know never to disagree with me:).

I think my point is pretty accurate and if anyone has ever listened to me when it comes to a system build, they understand 100% where I am coming from.

I use to be one of those guys that always had the latest and greatest and I use to take pride in that. I am not sure what it was all about but I always just wanted the fastest system regardless of price. Of course it helped being with a company that use to allow me to design and test things but all in all it got boring. Things have changed and we no longer have to worry about todays systems being weak. Usually it all depends on the users needs but overall, pretty much any system can get a task done in a decent time. The only down side to a system bought oem is usually the video card. Even todays onboard graphics will allow many games to be played but really not suggested if you are hardcore. Still, do you need the latest graphics card out in the last year to be able to game? Hell no!!! I still have a 4870 in one of my units and it plays everything with no problems. That card goes for (if you can find it) 170 bucks. There are even newer cards that in the price range that can't outperform it but because of dx11 some people feel newer is always better.

In all my time in this industry, I have never seen things be upgraded so fast. I still stick to my suggestion is buy medium with the ability to upgrade. If you spend all your eggs on one system, the next 6 months something will comeout to trounce it. This was always my reasoning for not liking Intel. Always having to upgrade your entire system for their latest and greatest makes no sense. Especially when a lot fo the work today is being unloaded onto the gpu. With multi cores and better operating systems, the whole game has changed. WIndows 7 actually handles multicores and memory much better. This does not mean people should rush out and go put more memory in a system because of the false sense that it will run better with 8 gigs of ram etc. The truth is no one ever will need over 4 gigs of ram unless they are doing professional work such as rendering. Still many of those apps don't even require such a dramatic amount of ram. To be honest most home systems don't even need over 2 gigs of ram but at the prices they are at why not go for 4 gigs and a 64 bit os to be able to utilize it.

While there will be people out there who will want glory of having the latest and greatest for 3-6 months, I would suggest simply buying with th eoption to add an upgrade every 6 months to a year. Spend your bulk on the video card that is on par with the latest standards. Dx10 cards are just as great as the latest dx11 cards but at a better price along with less power. As far as CPU, A dual core with a higher clock speed will outperform a quad core at a lower clock. AMD has the black edition PhenomII dual cores that are capable of being unlocked in the bios and turned into a quad and all for a hundred bucks. I have built a few systems and did such that along with overclocked them to 3.6 GHz. I could have gone higher but no need when system is stable as all hell without going crazy for a few extra clocks. While these chips won't beat Intels latest I7 chips on an x58 board, they are much cheaper with the ability to be upgraded in a year for a newer processor that has the latest and greatest and such a small cost compared to someone who spent 400-1000 on the best Intel chip. Bottom line what software really needs this today? I have built sub 1000 dollar systems that compete with 2000 dollar Intel systems and the benchmarks were positive for the cheaper system. I think I posted a score a few months ago with a system that cost a few hundred bucks that scored over 17000 3dmrk06 1900x1200 with a 5870 in it. Today to build that system it can probably be done for like 650 bucks. Most of that price is in the video card that will last you 2 years definetly.

If anyone listened to one of my suggested builds a few years ago, they would still be able to upgrade that same system and be able to run anything that is out. Maybe it wont be the fastest but your glory would still be the fact you are running a kick ass system that is a few years old and still out performs 70% of the units out there is pretty darn good.

[JIMINATOR]

I also disagree. the expensive video cards are a joke. their speed might be useful for a few games but mostly it is just wasted. anyone that ever bought a sli system has wasted their money. in virtually every case you can buy a reasonable card today, run everything with it, and replace it with a card 2x as fast for the same price in 1 to 1.5 years.

[SASQUATCH]

It makes no sense to purchase an expensive PC for games. As for Graphic cards, when it comes to games, the Nvidia or the Ati for me the only ones I would purchase and not needed to spend a lot for the graphic card but a reasonable price.

There is no one here who can better explain it then Biggs when it comes to building or customizing PC's.

Cheers Biggs. . .

[Grimmy]

What would you consider medium? And remember, you didn't answer my first question as if this is a whole system or just the tower.

No doubt if I get something that in 6 months there will be something better out, that's with anything. Intel isn't the only one that does it, but most of the time Intel is the first to come out with it. Yea AMD is cheaper, but that's about their only foot in the game it seems. You don't have to upgrade your whole system if you have an Intel chip, it depends on what you already have. Heck I still have an AMD system sitting right next to me, am I used some pieces you suggested as well as the proc, and well I don't think I can upgrade it to a newer processor. I am quite frankly disappointed in it, as well as the ATI card, not doing what it claims it can do. That's why I only use it for watching TV, cause that's about all it's good for.

You say buy a rig for X amount, and then throw a vid card into it, well a $6-700 rig with a $300 vid card is pushing $1k. That processor that's in it will probably bottleneck that card though, and so then what's the point? Most people that spend this money don't know how to over clock, nor would even think about it. If they knew how, they would probably spend a little more and have more head room with everything.

3DMark isn't really a good comparison anymore either. I broke 20K with my old 780i rig with an overclock to 3.6GHz on a q6600 and I didn't go anything to my vid cards. It's hard to compare a 32 bit rig to a 64 bit rig as it's like apples to oranges.

Oh, and I only disagree cause I followed your advice once on a rig, and well I'll just read up on my own and piece together, what works for me. I don't care about bang for buck, not on my own system. A top end piece here, one there, another a little later, and once it's complete I am happy for a long time (other then I am wanting to go win7 ultimate, but will add another 2 HDs for a 4 HD raid 0, just because I can and I want to). As much time as I spend on the computer, I feel quality comes first, and with that comes longevity, price comes later.



In all my time in this industry, I have never seen things be upgraded so fast. I still stick to my suggestion is buy medium with the ability to upgrade. If you spend all your eggs on one system, the next 6 months something will comeout to trounce it. This was always my reasoning for not liking Intel. Always having to upgrade your entire system for their latest and greatest makes no sense. Especially when a lot fo the work today is being unloaded onto the gpu. With multi cores and better operating systems, the whole game has changed. WIndows 7 actually handles multicores and memory much better. This does not mean people should rush out and go put more memory in a system because of the false sense that it will run better with 8 gigs of ram etc. The truth is no one ever will need over 4 gigs of ram unless they are doing professional work such as rendering. Still many of those apps don't even require such a dramatic amount of ram. To be honest most home systems don't even need over 2 gigs of ram but at the prices they are at why not go for 4 gigs and a 64 bit os to be able to utilize it.

While there will be people out there who will want glory of having the latest and greatest for 3-6 months, I would suggest simply buying with th eoption to add an upgrade every 6 months to a year. Spend your bulk on the video card that is on par with the latest standards. Dx10 cards are just as great as the latest dx11 cards but at a better price along with less power. As far as CPU, A dual core with a higher clock speed will outperform a quad core at a lower clock. AMD has the black edition PhenomII dual cores that are capable of being unlocked in the bios and turned into a quad and all for a hundred bucks. I have built a few systems and did such that along with overclocked them to 3.6 GHz. I could have gone higher but no need when system is stable as all hell without going crazy for a few extra clocks. While these chips won't beat Intels latest I7 chips on an x58 board, they are much cheaper with the ability to be upgraded in a year for a newer processor that has the latest and greatest and such a small cost compared to someone who spent 400-1000 on the best Intel chip. Bottom line what software really needs this today? I have built sub 1000 dollar systems that compete with 2000 dollar Intel systems and the benchmarks were positive for the cheaper system. I think I posted a score a few months ago with a system that cost a few hundred bucks that scored over 17000 3dmrk06 1900x1200 with a 5870 in it. Today to build that system it can probably be done for like 650 bucks. Most of that price is in the video card that will last you 2 years definetly.

If anyone listened to one of my suggested builds a few years ago, they would still be able to upgrade that same system and be able to run anything that is out. Maybe it wont be the fastest but your glory would still be the fact you are running a kick ass system that is a few years old and still out performs 70% of the units out there is pretty darn good.

[ME BIGGD01]

Grimmy, I know when it comes to hardware you want the best and don't mind spending for it. I was the same way. We are about 5-10% of the entire market like that so really what I say won't mean too much in that perspective. What I refer to is the average user mostly. At the same time, if you notice I do make a point to mention that even with us that spend all that money, it really is a waste of money because they only thing we can brag about is maybe a higher benchmark. You say 3dmark is really not up to par but honestly no benchmark is. They qare all optimized for the highest bidder. It use to be just Intel paying to have them done but now Nvidia does the same. With all of that I try not to be bias with either company and bring out basic facts.

As far as your AMD system that you currently have, you say it does not do what it was suppose to. What do you mean? How can it not? It's been awhile for me but if you could give me the model number I could look at the specs. I know you probably spent a pretty penny for it so it has to be one of the higher end models. Just to let you know I bet you what ever it is, you could simply upgrade it still. WHile it may not be as fast as that expensive system you put together, I would bet that I could get it running to where you could not tell the difference in any app or game.

The bottom line is and stictly to the point, the computers today will run any software. If it's games, even if your cpu bottlenecks you a little, a good video card will keep you at a playable framerate.

To prove my point, I will test this and give you a score to any benchmark of your choosing. I will use a system that is 3 years old. In fact I will make sure all parts in the system are atleast that old.

[Gun Element]

People who buy the high end cards and CPU's either do it as a hobby; to have the latest and greatest or video editing/work related stuff.

Spending around a grand really isn't too bad and wouldn't say "OMG you spent too much!" Spending over 1.5K and up is pretty inefficient though. I bought a computer for $150 (used) and it runs mostly everything I put into it. (9800GT, AMD4800+ etc.). I see no need for anything greater, maybe an upgrade in 2 years MAYBE. My friend's parents bought a $2,500 computer for him as a graduation present and he did it because as he said "I wanted a computer that would last me almost a decade".

Chances are, he'll be perfectly happy with it till then mostly because his last POS computer (compaq) lasted him almost 9 years

I think in the end price varies on

1) how much is "too much" - as a college student anything is too much :)
2) Knowledge of hardware - builders who shop on newegg and tiger will think a $800-1000 computer is pretty amazing, while a noob will think "$800?, must not be very good.." (based on my own mind, not fact)
3) you don't give a damn cuz your loaded