We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected - Sen. John Danforth R-MO 1981

[Nitro]

___

[Sirc]

Source?

Anyway, I found this to be a pretty damn good explanation of what our current core problems are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCRnkamitVk&feature=youtu.be

More power to the Occupy Wall Street movement and the offshoots that continue to spring up in other cities.

[ME BIGGD01]

Sirc, could you please explain to me what they are protesting? I am unsure of what the reason is. Thanks.

[Nitro]

____

[JIMINATOR]

I think it is something like the burning man gathering, but with much less people and much less fun. Who knows what the hell they want? The shit they post is just bullshit.

[ME BIGGD01]

Nitro, define slave. In your terms what is a slave? What are they realizing that makes them a victim and what are they a victim of? What is the overall solution for these people? When you say majority, who are you referring to. The majority of who and what? What freedoms are they arguing against or what is it that makes them not free? Also what makes them a peon and what are they actually doing in this worl and society that makes them something they feel they are something. Like if I wake up and want to feel like a million bucks, what should I do to make myself feel like that?

[Sirc]

Sirc, could you please explain to me what they are protesting? I am unsure of what the reason is. Thanks.

Did you even watch the video?

That pretty much sums it up. For starters.

Call them hippies, freaks, whatever. The hippies in the 60's protesting on Washington DC had a rather large part in ending the VN war - whether you'd like to admit it or not. They were speaking for the country's general feelings about what was going wrong then.

There are so many things wrong with this country that it's hard to even know where to begin to tell where to start fixing it.

Maybe these people should go get a life and a job. ROFL! Wait...that's kind of the point I think. No life, freedoms taken away, no jobs, and banks and corporations run the country and the government.

This is my last post on this. I already know this is a primarily hard right wing forum that supports a "bought Congress". Politics has become a religion to a lot of you on top of your Christian superiority complexes. There can be no useful debate.

[Death Engineer]

As a conservative, I can definitely say that I do NOT support a "bought Congress." The current state of politics sickens me. And yet I wouldn't recommend that career path to any of the best people I know because I'm sure it would be their ruin (either it would change them, or they would get buried in false accusations or skeletons). It's a sad state of affairs. While I have more in common with Republicans than any other group from a platform point of view, I think the current system is part of the problem. That mixed with greed and the "you can't touch me" attitude pretty much sums up Washington politics.

Reality is that we've dug ourselves into a pretty deep hole financially (not to mention morally) in our country and it's time to stop digging. I'd love to see a return to the idea of personal responsibility -- yes, YOU are responsible for your actions and choices. That and a bit of kindness and common sense would go a long ways in today's world.

I'm as confused as anyone else about the OWS folks. I don't know what they want, what they stand for, etc. But if it elevates the need for change in a peaceful way, I'm for it. I will say that some of the things that I've seen OWS make a big deal about make no sense to me though.

[EXEcution]

Like if I wake up and want to feel like a million bucks, what should I do to make myself feel like that? Having a million bucks to spend might help.

[EXEcution]

I already know this is a primarily hard right wing forum that supports a "bought Congress".
When did GM become a political forum? Better yet, when did it become a conservative political forum. I'd say the majority of the people (who are not in this thread) here are liberal.

[Nitro]

____

[JIMINATOR]

Nitro, the ultimate in new age philosophy says that you create your own reality. When you promote an entitlement type of mentality you create permanent dependency and are actually taking away from people the will and the drive to change.

I mean lets face it, for most people, they will not do anything different unless they are forced to do so. If you provide a miserable meager life, that will be what they live, as long as you are willing to continue to provide.

This belief that the rich are taking all the money. That is bullshit. The only difference from them and you is that they have a prosperity type of mentality. Poor people have a victim type of mentality.

Look at the broken window theory. Somebody smashes a store window. The store owner has to play to replace the window, the money goes around in a circle until somebody winds up buying goods at the store. In that way the spending of cash generates prosperity for everyone.

The example is somewhat of bullshit, but it does indicate some true concepts. What is the difference from today vs 5 years ago? Mainly people had a greater belief in prosperity and were more willing to spend money. Today there is a belief in how shitty things are, and en mass people are reacting to that belief by hoarding and so forth.

Anyway I think ultimately the complaints against the rich are misguided. Trying to equalize society might create equality, but the equality will be where everyone is equally poor.

[EXEcution]

This belief that the rich are taking all the money. That is bullshit. The only difference from them and you is that they have a prosperity type of mentality. Poor people have a victim type of mentality.

Look at the broken window theory. Somebody smashes a store window. The store owner has to play to replace the window, the money goes around in a circle until somebody winds up buying goods at the store. In that way the spending of cash generates prosperity for everyone.

The example is somewhat of bullshit, but it does indicate some true concepts. What is the difference from today vs 5 years ago? Mainly people had a greater belief in prosperity and were more willing to spend money. Today there is a belief in how shitty things are, and en mass people are reacting to that belief by hoarding and so forth.

Anyway I think ultimately the complaints against the rich are misguided. Trying to equalize society might create equality, but the equality will be where everyone is equally poor.

It's not about the rich taking all the money as much as the rich having all of the money. Ultimately more money buys you more control (e.g. lobbying, owning stocks and bonds, employing others). If the majority of money is super-concentrated then it's likely that all of the rich are as well. They pass down money to their relatives, the control structure remains intact. Thinking about it systematically makes more sense. Don't blame the people, blame the system.

The rich get taxed less because they are in a better position to invest and get a sufficient returns from their large sums of money. The rich have a prosperous mentality because they can afford to. The "poor" and the middle class, on the other hand, are not in the same position. They are bound by the rules and cannot lobby for much alone. As a collective they might outnumber the rich, but they still do not have the financial leverage the rich do.

Socialism does not imply universal equality and equal wages. A doctor would still make more than a store clerk or a cashier. This is because the laws of supply and demand would still apply to labor. It is understood that there would need to be some kind of incentive for a person to want to become a doctor. If doctors and cashiers made the same wage the incentive for a person to go to medical school and become a doctor would diminish.

The point is that the rich do not contribute enough into the society which has provided them with the means to become wealthy.

[EXEcution]

Look at the broken window theory. Somebody smashes a store window. The store owner has to play to replace the window, the money goes around in a circle until somebody winds up buying goods at the store. In that way the spending of cash generates prosperity for everyone.

The example is somewhat of bullshit, but it does indicate some true concepts.

The broken window theory you are describing is actually a fallacy. It's also the most common one in the field of economics. Destruction does not create wealth, this is why normal people don't go around purposely breaking windows. What if the store owner was saving money to buy himself a suit and instead has to pay for the window? Now instead of a window and a suit, he only has a window.. Or maybe he had the money in a interest bearing account... Also, why do you assume that the money will come back to the shopkeeper's store and not one of his competitors? Finally, how is fixing a broken window helping society? It's merely restoring something that is broken back to it's original state. There is not net benefit. It's totally unrelated to your argument, but worth pointing out.

There is a broken windows theory you can read about here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory).

[Nitro]

___

[JIMINATOR]

There is no bigger picture. The end results is that life is what you make of the experience, then you die. Or at least your body dies, and you the experiencer of yourself, move on to something else. Everything that happens in this world is relatively meaningless. It is just a drama, the cooler, the better. Freemasons, cool. Everyone talked about in the book is dead. Whatever exists today, I don't see it matters much. The concentration of wealth, there is an infinite amount of wealth available in the world. The only limitations we have are our beliefs. Exe, I am not saying your circumstances form your beliefs, but the other way around. Take a positive can-do attitude and you can make shit happen. You can get jobs where none are available and so forth.

[Nitro]

There is no bigger picture. The end results is that life is what you make of the experience, then you die. Or at least your body dies, and you the experiencer of yourself, move on to something else. Everything that happens in this world is relatively meaningless. It is just a drama, the cooler, the better. Freemasons, cool. Everyone talked about in the book is dead. Whatever exists today, I don't see it matters much. The concentration of wealth, there is an infinite amount of wealth available in the world. The only limitations we have are our beliefs. Exe, I am not saying your circumstances form your beliefs, but the other way around. Take a positive can-do attitude and you can make shit happen. You can get jobs where none are available and so forth.

I mostly agree, even with the last part you mentioned. Can't find a job because of the fact that they don't exist these days? Create your own! Think outside the box creatively and become an entrepreneur (these days with the internet this is probably easier than ever before)...take control of your life and don't become dependent on something that may not always be there (like a job in the auto industry as just one example). Or, develop your neuro-linguistic programming skills and relationship skills to get a job through connectivity. In the grand grand scheme of things, alot of things matter very little, but if there are people that wish to bring back the just rule of law like OWS is doing, than by all means, go for it.

[ME BIGGD01]

First of all, if any of you people believe that this ocupy BS isn't an agenda based ploy than you are are nothing but a sheep. There is no message but to try to bring down Capitalism. These people protesting are nothing more but hired for the agenda and for support for socialism. This is the Obama way of doing things. The George Soro's way. While I hear people talking BS still onthis forum, let the record show you have been wrong wrong wrong. While there is corruption in many parts of captitism, it is still the way to go for this country. If this protest was real and not political, they would be protesting every single aspect of our government and yes that includes both key parties. The corruption and greed starts with our politicians.

Lets reverse this. Would it be fair for me to go protesting against the poor useless people of America? Can my rich friends or hell even blue collar workers just occupy the welfare offices and every other Governemnt handout locations such as unemployment offices, etc? Couldn't it be reversed to say we working people are f'cking tired of working our asses off to support scum of society? Isn't it just as unfair to those who made something of themselves to have to pay the bulk of the expences of the country? Since when is it you are deemed evil to be succesful? I see this routine even in the education for our children where no one loses. This is the problem and the reason so many of you are brain washed. You think it's ok to do nothing while others break their ass. Everyone wins regardless if you are the little fat **** tripping over themself in a race. It's pathetic and the wrong path for any country. It's socialism and if you support this, you are an enemy. The irony is those talking the most BS are not only sheep but hypocrites because you never see them offering anything they have or earned to anyone.

This country has turned into a mess and while I can spit at all the politicans and deem them as crooked, I blame the sheep mostly. I don't expect things to get better any time soon. I already see the decline daily not only in our currency but in the values which this country was founded on.

As for Sirc saying this has been a conservative forum, you must be high on something. This forum has been nothing but a liberal comedy act. Nothing but Liberal BS as usual with their bogas ideas without a solution to anything. If I am wrong, who the hell have I been arguing with?

At this point I really don't care any more. I have learned that people will talk out of their ass yet know nothing. Again, let the record show. What will be wil be and I will just do what I feel is best for me and my family. I stand by every statement I have ever made on this forum regardless if it was in bad taste or seemed harsh. At least I had offered solutions that I think would work. No matter what and no matter where, we are all F'd. You can quote me on this as well. One day you will wake up in a world you can not believe you are in. If any of you were smart, you would already be stocking up on arms and ammo for what is to come. There has to be a reason the Govenment wants to take that right away as well.

Have a good day sheep:thumbs:

[ME BIGGD01]

Nitro, teh worst thing for us to lose in this country is the ability to innovate. A major problem which is being brainwashed into Americans and maybe around the world is thatyou don't need to compete. This makes the sheep think they deserve something without earning. It's like if you have children, you don't need to teach them right from wrong. Now I think any parent would agree, you just don't let your kids get away with anything and you just don't give them anything they want. If our society lived on these basic principles, we would not be in this situation. The day we as humans stop giving credit to those who earned it is when we all will fail. Of course you can see the difference between the sheep and an agenda based plan.

[JIMINATOR]

A major problem which is being brainwashed into Americans and maybe around the world is thatyou don't need to compete.

wow, I think this is the most insightful thing Biggs has ever said :)

[EXEcution]

It is sheepish to believe that one can succeed (financially) just by sheer willpower.

[Nitro]

wow, I think this is the most insightful thing Biggs has ever said :)

QFT :)

But I think it's beyond healthy competition and in the domain of creative innovation to make every aspect of life more enjoyable. The education system doesn't educate the youth on how to be a part of society that revolutionizes some aspect of life and make it better. The over-dominance of left-brain schooling and an ignoring of right-brain processes is making children grow up to become drone-like average passive unimaginative adults. The Einsteins of the future will become Ritalin-fed ordinary minds that are good at test taking and cheating their way upward but that will hold back humanity in the depths of the ignorance of understanding everything as it exists in objective reality.

[ME BIGGD01]

wow, I think this is the most insightful thing Biggs has ever said :)

If you research it, you will see I have been saying this for a while. Can you imagine how I would be if everyone was accountable for themself? This is my biggest problem. For anyone, how could we consider this to be a way to prosper or advance? Like these big issues around the world all of a sudden there is so much debt every where. To me this is all a farce and honestly I feel it's a created problem for another agenda. It's not just that either. If we look at everything that is an issue, you have to wonder why it is an issue. Hell even I am guilty of it but overall I know how I really feel about things and what kind of person I am outside of those frustrations. Am I wrong? I don't think so. Sure maybe my delivery could be better but seriously, isn't the only thing that matters be judged on 2 things which is what's right and what's wrong outside of an opinion? Without bias? Is it possible for people to really think for themselves without some sort of influence they got to alter their judgement?

I ask for very simple things in life. One is the chance and second is the ability. I want the chance for the ability for everything. Now truth be told, I want this for everyone with no exceptions. Why is anything else so complex?

If I was asked what is the most frustrating thing to me in society, I would say it is the agenda we should fear that is being pushed upon us that people just can't see.

Religion, Race, Sexuality, Language, Labor, Weight, Height, Looks/Attractive, Knowledge. Each one of these things can be so pushed off base depending on ones mood at any giving time. If you are cut off by anyone of these, your frustration can get the best of you such as reacting with a scream " You stupid, doofy looking, over sized, over weight, lazy, non english speaking honkey Jew." Now seriously, in todays society in America, does the majority really even care about any of these things? I know I don't give a rats ass about any of it. I don't care about your religion as long as you don't preach to me as your religion is the right one. I don't care if you are gay or straight. I don't care if you are fat or skinny. I don't care if you are pretty or ugly. Stupid is what stupid does. I don't care about any of it as long as it does not interfere with me. The most important thing to me is "integrity" which I do fear is lost in todays society. I may be out spoken at times but I know myself to know and care for people in every single one of those topics. I know Gay people. I know someone of all races except an eskimo. Never met one. I know skinny and fat people. I know dumb and I know smart people and funny thing is out of all these things we all can be at the other end. Now when you hear these on the news or in the media, they are used for an agenda. This is the most frustrating thing to me where I don't see any problems but ones that are created for a reason or again, an agenda.

[JIMINATOR]

It is sheepish to believe that one can succeed (financially) just by sheer willpower.
As long as you have that belief you will fail before you ever started.

As for school systems, they are a joke. Watch the movie "waiting for superman" for a detailed review of all their issues. There are lots of schools where teachers don't give a shit and they can't be fired. The kids have a miserable graduation rate and not much of a future if they do graduate. Schools are geared toward making middle class workers. Very rarely will you find teachers that actually teach students how to think. It mostly about memorization. But wait, what about all the federal money for improving test scores? Hell no. Here in atlanta they found it easier to have teachers cheat on the tests rather than bothering to actually teach the kids.

[EXEcution]

As long as you have that belief you will fail before you ever started.

As for school systems, they are a joke. Watch the movie "waiting for superman" for a detailed review of all their issues. There are lots of schools where teachers don't give a shit and they can't be fired. The kids have a miserable graduation rate and not much of a future if they do graduate. Schools are geared toward making middle class workers. Very rarely will you find teachers that actually teach students how to think. It mostly about memorization. But wait, what about all the federal money for improving test scores? Hell no. Here in atlanta they found it easier to have teachers cheat on the tests rather than bothering to actually teach the kids.

Did you just contradict yourself? How can a person expect to succeed without a proper education? Better yet, what constitutes a proper education nowadays? Can you honestly say that the things you were taught back in school (not college) contribute to your financial well-being?

The first 18 years of your life are not completely in your hands.

The belief that I can succeed by wishing to succeed is silly. Doesn't everyone want to succeed? First, you have to know how, and unless you are raised in a proper environment you will have a hard time getting the "right" answer.

[JIMINATOR]

Why is it that we have so many people coming in to the country with no education, no money, no anything except desire? Many of them succeed, they get jobs, they drive cabs, they run stores. Maybe shitty jobs by your standards, yet it is a dream which was unavailable in their own country. The difference between them and the people in our country is that they have dreams and they are willing to do what it takes. You are bullshitting yourself if you think our half ass education system has the answers. Our country has lulled people to sleep. Our kids are miserable. We feed them the drug of dependency for a miserable life of just getting by. It is enough to sustain and for most people they have made it be enough. Look at the photos of detroit for the future of where our country are heading. No jobs, no future, no prospect of a future.

[EXEcution]

Why is it that we have so many people coming in to the country with no education, no money, no anything except desire? Many of them succeed, they get jobs, they drive cabs, they run stores.
There is opportunity here in the US, but it's not even close to equal. What happens to the people that don't succeed. How about the people who did succeed at first, but then had their homes taken away, or had to shut down their small businesses.


Maybe shitty jobs by your standards, yet it is a dream which was unavailable in their own country. The difference between them and the people in our country is that they have dreams and they are willing to do what it takes. You are bullshitting yourself if you think our half ass education system has the answers. Our country has lulled people to sleep. Our kids are miserable. We feed them the drug of dependency for a miserable life of just getting by. It is enough to sustain and for most people they have made it be enough. Look at the photos of detroit for the future of where our country are heading. No jobs, no future, no prospect of a future.

I never said our education system has the answers... in fact I stated the exact opposite. Detroit has actually gotten much better from what I've heard. Cities will find ways to spring back, opportunity often follows demise.

This "end of the U.S." that everyone seems to be preaching is complete BS. At the very least it will not happen within your lifetimes. Things might change, but I like to think that they will change for the better.

[ME BIGGD01]

Exe, I think you are wrong thinking education is the only thing that makes someone succesful. It is complete will. That will is belief that makes someone succesful. I do not give my education any credit for my success. I was like the many who was pushed through school as teachers got paid big dollars (Highest in the country). I agree with Jim 100%. Considering what I know where I came from, and where I am now, I make that judgement.

[JIMINATOR]

This "end of the U.S." that everyone seems to be preaching is complete BS. At the very least it will not happen within your lifetimes. Things might change, but I like to think that they will change for the better.
Really? How? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see things change. But I think that our collective population is living under a state of delusion. There is still the mentality where we are THE SUPERPOWER in the world, where we have the jobs and we produce all the goods. All of that has changed. We still have some industries. Many of them have been exported out to other countries. Any jobs that can be moved to overseas have been. The rest of the world has seen what we have and they want it. Good for them. Not so good for the american worker. If you find the initiative to actually start producing a product - you will then outsource it to china for mass production. The cost structure in our country barely supports mass production any more. Add to that if you have to use any unionized workforce, you will be totally screwed. Your costs will double or triple and that will be if you are lucky.

As for people losing their houses, why did they lose their house? Was it because they had to keep up with the Jones? Which meant buying the biggest most expensive house you can afford based on your salary, and if you get a new job there had to be serious consideration of moving to a new neighborhood? That and maxing out the credit cards and the home equity lines of credit and various other types of the mortgage loans with low intro rates? What the hell type of insanity was that? Why does everyone need to have their own home, even if they could not afford it and had no way of paying for it?

The small businesses, I feel for them, but then again a lot of them suffered from the same type of problems. Too much expansion, too much loans, too much debt and then when the collapse came it capsized a bunch that did not have any reserves to get them through the tough time. Now companies (and people for that matter) are collectively in a collect cash reserves type of mindset. Spend the minimal amount you can, stash the rest in case another collapse comes. If it does come, and it hits our money supply, then we will be pretty screwed.

Anyway, don't take offense, I am just having some fun with you and nitro. It is an interesting topic, and one which we will be living through the consequences with our lives. :)

[EXEcution]

The banks who supplied the loans and mortgages are as much at fault as the people who took them. Their lack of prudence and foresight is the reason for the most recent economic collapse.

[EXEcution]

Exe, I think you are wrong thinking education is the only thing that makes someone succesful. It is complete will. That will is belief that makes someone succesful. I do not give my education any credit for my success. I was like the many who was pushed through school as teachers got paid big dollars (Highest in the country). I agree with Jim 100%. Considering what I know where I came from, and where I am now, I make that judgement.
One has to be taught what success is and the best steps that need to be taken in order to succeed.

[ME BIGGD01]

You are wrong that success has to be taught. Sucess can be anything. Take someone from the ghetto who makes it. Did they learn it from education or their will? Opportunity is the best chance for someone to be sucessful. To get such, you need the will to go for it.

Jim as far as small businesses doing the same thing as the avg moron who spent and borrowed more than they could afford, I can only debate that maybe in some instances but in a majority sense, I would say it is very hard to compete with the big guys. I can only speak for where I live where many small businesses just can not afford to run because of the overhead and the taxes. It is extrely crazy here in NY. Many huge Corps have left because it just doesn't make sense to run a business here. Top that with the Unions here and it makes no sense at all from any perspective. Living on Long Island, you have cops making over 100,000 a year and teachers making over 150,000 teaching grade school. Worst part here is they are union. While I would be fine with those salaries, it's the retirement and pension they get afterwards. How can cilil servant be in any kind of union? The only answer is because NY is a Democratic run state and this is how they get their votes. Ask the avergae Joe around here and you will not find too many blue collar workers that didn't vote republican. The whole system is broken and look at the country now.

As far as Mortgages go, people borrowed on top of their mortgage. Took fake equity out on their house and the biggest problem we have across America is they are not being held responsible for their debt. Too many people stopped paying their mortgage because they don't have to. They can manipulate the system and stay in their house long enough to bank it all. This is the ultimate problem today with housing. As an example. Someones house is worth 300,000 here. 5 years ago it was worth 500,000. But was it really? Most people owned their house before it went up in value and they took loans on top of it. Now they feel it's fair not to pay their mortgage becaus etheir house isn't worth the sum of their mortgage payments but truthfully it is because of the home equity loans they took. It's so broken and they hurt everyone else who is paying their mortgage. It hurts those who own their property. Taxes are not being paid so those who are paying end up with higher tax to make up for those not paying. Because a Democrat will always make the scumbag the victim and the people paying the fix, we the people with some integrity get F'd. This is what this country is all about. Look at the scumbag occupiers. Must be nice not having to work and be able to protest. Who is paying their bills? It's all agenda based BS and anyone who supports it is just F'ing clueless to what is really going on. They should go and read the stupid socialism signs at such protests. Anyone who talks highly of these people or thiese actions is your enemy and an enemy of America. There is no debate about that.

[Sirc]

Let me ask you BIGG: Do you think our society would be better off with absolutely no socialism?


Hint: Trick question. Think before you answer.

[EXEcution]

You are baiting BIGGs to say something you can easily argue against. If he says yes AND can then cite the hundreds of theoretical solutions to privatizing roads, the military, food and health care then you will be much harder pressed to offer a rebuttal. But BIGG speaks his mind, much like the rest of us. If this were an actual political theory forum we all would likely be ignored...

Whatever the true solution to our problems it must be humane. We can't let people suffer and die because they have made mistakes in the past, nor should they be rewarded for making those mistakes. Those people should be educated and taught not to make those mistakes twice.

[ME BIGGD01]

Sirc, there is no point to answering trick questions. I already know what you are going to say. I do however want to stress something. This is not just about socialism. There is so much more to it and bottom line when you look at it, it will not and is not good for America.

Let's just make it perfectly clear. Communism does not work. America was not founded with communism in mind. I do have to ask you though, why do you feel socialism is needed. Wouldn't that be a better question? While you can point out the bad things regarding capitalism, I will simply say yes but there are Government agencies and laws to prevent such bad things. I never bite on the use of the word greed either. Usually it's the loser who cries foul.

So while you want to chat about "Socialism", I suggest you look at the overall picture of what is going on. Bottom line is, this situation is not going to help those who want an opportunity or those who feel they are owed something. There is such a bigger picture but you think a group of people just got together to occupy areas in every city. I can't argue with what either of us think is right. I can only make assumptions to what is accurate such as if these people cared, why are they barking up the wrong tree and not occupying Federal offices? I have said it before and will say it until they make their final chess move and the World is one Government.

I have always been open minded regardless of my approach. Let's say I have no idea what I am talking about. Why don't you tell me what I am missing. Explain to me what's so good about all of this. Tell me what Obama and his cronies are doing so wonderful for this Nation. Please, that is not sarcasm just want someone who always debates to actually explain their reasoning.

[ME BIGGD01]

Exe, the only way I could answer Sirc's question is with history. Now if I recall, your family heritage is Russian. Do you have any ancestors in Russia that would be able to explain the goods and bads about socialism? This is not a dig either at you. To make my point, I have an older Russian friend that argues with the communists in Manhattan that tell him its the right thing. I could not bringthis point up because it would seem bias but you could because of your heritage. I honestly think people have no idea in this country what they ask for. Like they can pick and choose the way of life that suits them.

I honestly don't know much about your and your family but if by chance, you can discuss this very subject with one the old timers in your family (we all have them) that would be be great.

[Die Hard]

I have always been open minded

OH MY GOD :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[ME BIGGD01]

OH MY GOD :rofl::rofl::rofl:


What's so funny? Is that not true? Honestly, it kind of pisses me off enough I would probably hit you if you did that in front of me. What's so ****ing funny? Becausey views differ to those on this forum? While I accept my opinion and the way I feel, I stand by to no one here ever tries to explain their opinion. Never once do I just give an opinion. I explain why I have such opinion. I dare anyone to give reasoning to their comments like I do. It's typical to people justtake what I say and either disregard it or consider it insipid. Maybe so as well but nothinbg worst than someone with no input. It's ironic a few years ago everything I said would happen is happening world wide. Even if I am still wrong as my opinions express. Where does that leave the majority here?

Before you laugh, show me a post ever made to where someone tried to change my mind on a subject.

[Sirc]

OH MY GOD

My thoughts exactly.

I asked a very simple question BIGG. I thought we could find a starting point and then expand on it. As usual, you didn't answer my question, and you turned it around and did your usual "if you've seen what I've seen, and you know what I know, and you've read what I've read, then you would realize you are completely wrong". And then you go on to spout vague rhetoric - a great misty wall of of some "overall picture" that you can neither specifically describe or logically support.

On the other hand, a while ago I made a thread that specifically detailed several of the major things that I thought were wrong with the US government. I made an enumerated list. My points were very specific. And I provided references. Not everyone agreed with my views, but that was fine. At least people here were able to discuss whichever points they were interested in.

If you really care to have a discussion with me, you will have to try to stay on a specific topic. Also, you must understand that you and I come from completely different cultures within our country. For instance, there are no grade school teachers in SW Ohio making anywhere close to $150K a year. Not even half of that. Different cultures, different cost of living, different mindsets. You live in probably the most extreme place in the US as far as just about anything is concerned. Please keep that in mind.

[Sirc]

Before you laugh, show me a post ever made to where someone tried to change my mind on a subject.

Well for instance, when you expressed the opinion that we should just nuke the entire Middle East, I'm pretty sure some of us tried to explain the cataclysmic consequences of doing that. You remained unswayed in your opinion. It put some of us off trying to reason with you.


EDIT: Also, the hitting thing. It's not exactly a polite invitation to continue to interact with you.

[ME BIGGD01]

The hitting comment was not in a threatening manner. I like DieHard but is was meant to express my feelings of the situation.

Now you brought up Nuking the middle east but I think it was Iran I referred to. I still stand by that. I do recall my reasons as well and if my memory is correct it had to do with exactly what is happening today. You see it's easy to look at my comment but ignore the reasoning I give for any comment. This is exactly my point. But lets go back then and let everyone tell me how diplomacy works. Did Diplomacy work? Did the UN sanctions work? Oh wait, I also mentioned exactly who would be helping Iran (Russia and China). I can not tell the future but I can see where things are heading and now that the secret is out that Iran is developing Nuclear Weapons, how safe do you think the world is? I guess it's worst than a civilian suggesting we nuke a country but it's fine for a government to repeat a comment how they will knock a country off the map.

Now if I look back, can you please tell me how anyone tried to sway me in another option? If I do recall it was I was a maniac along with other stuff but bottom line is how many people are going to die because of the inaction? It's like the Japan conversation of WWII. So many people discuss that we dropped the A bomb. My point was it ended the war and at the end of that day it saved more lives in the future than most people can trully understand. Of course I would have agreed with the Generals back then to hit Russia next but truth is America does not operate that way regardless of what the world claims us to be which is ironic.

Hey if no one can understand me or I can't understand them, so be it. What will be will be. Just keep your eyes open because it's happening while many people are still not paying attention to the details.

[Nitro]

cant delete posts so you see this

ill give you this kitten video just so it isnt an entire waste

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX3iLfcMDCw

[EXEcution]

Of course I would have agreed with the Generals back then to hit Russia next but truth is America does not operate that way regardless of what the world claims us to be which is ironic.

Hit Russia with a nuke during WW2 you mean? That would be a nice "thank you" after they practically won the war with America's help.

[ME BIGGD01]

Hit Russia with a nuke during WW2 you mean? That would be a nice "thank you" after they practically won the war with America's help.

But wouldn't that make it true how America is a war monger? Isn't that the label America has? Wouldn't America have been better off had they eliminated their number one enemy? Wouldn't America have really been the Empire so many claim we think we are?

Bottom line is America has never been like that even though it could have been done. Then again, America could have also let Germany and Japan do what it wanted and not even got involved. People should think what the outcome would have been had that been the case.

[Nitro]

___

[ME BIGGD01]

Well Nitro, reread what you just said and think about what I said. Would that have been possible had we taken Russia out back then? That's simply my point and today Russia is still a threat along with creating other threats for America.

[Nitro]

___

[ME BIGGD01]

Here is a simple question. Had we not dropped the A bomb on Japan, how many people would have died?

[JIMINATOR]

By now? probably most of them. :)

[EXEcution]

Here is a simple question. Had we not dropped the A bomb on Japan, how many people would have died?

"Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary." Dwight D. Eisenhower

What are you even trying to argue here? No one knows what could have happened. Most likely nothing... the war was over.

Do you really want a nuclear war to occur in your lifetime? The threat alone should make you scared enough.

[Nitro]

___

[EXEcution]

There are anti-capitalists part of the broad movement but there are also capitalists who far outnumber them. The goal is not to destroy capitalism, but to restore it. We don't have capitalism today.

Correct, we live in a corporatist, not a capitalist society.