What I want to happen when I die...

[Sirc]

This is not a challenge to anyone's belief system. This is not intended to be a drama thread. This is an honest post of my own personal beliefs.

And, as far as I know, I'm not dying - I'm still in pretty good health I think as I approach the age of 52. All systems still in the green. :)

I, however, do not believe in life beyond death in any religious or metaphysical way. I began as an egg from a woman that was fertilized by a man. Before that, I did not exist. I believe that when I die I will cease to exist, and my body will break down and become part of the universe. Just as my atoms have always been part of the universe while I lived, and before I lived, and after I die.

I take comfort in this. It's part of an amazing cycle that I have always been part of and always will be part of. And I am thankful for the time that my atoms have come together in a way to allow me to be a sentient being - if only briefly.

Some say that the older you get and become more aware of your mortality the more religious you become. It's quite the opposite for me.

The older I get the more I would prefer that when I die I could be set into the earth and have an oak tree planted above my body. I would like to become a part of something majestic and beautiful. If only for a while. No single living thing lasts forever. My atoms will become something else. Or not - perhaps they will float freely for eons.

Point being - my consciousness will end with my death - who I am, but not what I am made of. My matter will persist.

I'm good with that. :)




If you have something to add please keep it philosophical and not confrontational.

[JIMINATOR]

ya, it was one of the things I hated when my father died in march. essentially they embalm you to stop decay and then put the casket in a plastic liner to keep the toxins from embalming out of the ground. total bullshit if you ask me. I'd rather be put in the ground directly somewhere, or like in tibet, have some crows get a good meal from my body.

as for the whole "you did not exist" thingy, what proof do you have of that? :D
memory is certainly not proof, you probably don't remember being born or much of anything up until you were two.
why is there something called sirc, that you experience as yourself?
You can say that you have a bunch of random cells that compose your brain, and from this comes your "self".
Why? What makes them special? Why are you not a lamp post for example?
So you might say that your thinking is what defines you.
Ok, what about when you are not thinking?
How can you both think and watch yourself thinking?
Who is the watcher?
If you are a bunch of cells, well, most of your cells get replaced every 3 years
Most of your atoms have been replaced many times
Why do you still remain "you" after all that?

Anyway just having some fun, don't take any offense. :)

[Sirc]

I never said that I don't exist. As Sirc, I do. Temporarily.

Everything I'm made of existed before I, as Sirc, existed. Randomly. It took a male and female human to bring random matter together to create the being that is me. Before that happened I was not me. I have no proof that I existed before this happened. I have no proof that I will exist when I die and my matter decays. I'm not here to prove anything.

I have no memory of my conception, nor of my gestation, nor of my very early years because my brain had not formed to the point where my memories could be stored. When I die my memories will be lost, because my brain will die. My brain processes define who I am. Without those processes I don't exist.

Am I special? No. I am random. As are you. As is everyone. One sperm, one egg. Out of many, many possibilities I exist. My entire lineage was filled with random events that led to me being here. There isn't anything special about it, it just worked out that way.

Why am I not a lamp post? Part of me may become one. Part of me that is not longer part of me may actually be one. Part of me may have been one at some point. Who is to say?

I am "me" because I continue to think as "me". It doesn't make any difference that I may swap out some parts along the way. As long as the machine that is "me" functions, I am still "me" regardless of if I get my brakes replaced, my oil changed, my belts, hoses, transmission, or whatever replaced. I still have the same serial number that is my being. As long as my brain, my mind, stays primarily intact then I will continue to be "me" despite losing or adding a few cells along the way. No one stays the same throughout their lives. You are constantly changing and adapting. You do not think the same way now as you did when you were 15 years old, even though you may remember being 15 years old. Your collect experience is what make you..."you".

All human beings have the ability to think to themselves. It's simply another brain process that allows the speech center to allow your higher processing centers to reflect back upon itself. Do you think to yourself in Latin? No, you think to yourself in English, as everyone thinks to themselves in their own language. It's a human trait. Nothing more special than the autonomic nervous system allowing your heart to keep beating and your lungs to keep breathing without you even being aware of it.

Your mind is a machine, a very complex machine, but a machine none the less. We are as much animals as dogs and dolphins, cats and canaries. We all dream. And when we die the machine dies with us. And the dreams stop. That is what I believe. And I'm not afraid.

[Die Hard]

Pass me some please ..........

[JIMINATOR]

If you believe you are your brain, the complex machine, then what if you had no brain? Would you still exist? Would you be able to function? Before you say no, nonsense, take a look at this article:

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm


Two young children with hydrocephalus referred to Lorber presented with normal mental development for their age. In both children, there was no evidence of a cerebral cortex. One of the children died at age 3 months, the second at 12 months. He was still following a normal development profile with the exception of the apparent lack of cerebral tissue shown by repeated medical testing. An account of the children was published in Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology.

Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young man with a larger than normal head. He was referred to Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty. Although the boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had "virtually no brain". A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness. The rest of his skull was filled with cerebrospinal fluid. The young man continues a normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.

Note, I am not trying to convince you or change your mind of anything, I just find it a fascinating topic.

In my own search for self I also went down the rabbit hole, but came out of one different from yours.

Do I believe in god? Yes, but not the god of the bible. My god is one of pure awareness that happened. After the awareness came the ability to identify, the ability to form beliefs, and the ability to separate its conscious. Nothing actually exists in the universe, there is no space, no time, except as concepts. god applied beliefs to the concepts and that created what we experience. When god created everything, he created it out of himself, since there is actually nothing else that exists. On the stage of the universe there is only one actor playing all the roles, not just of the characters, but also the band, the writers, the audience and the stage itself. Do we die? We can't die. If you died you would have no awareness. If an almost infinite amount of time passed and suddenly you were aware again, you would see that as an unbroken period of consciousness. Time in this concept is the projection of NOW. Time as we usually know it is a relationship of rate of change vs space and matter. Since none of these things actually exist there is no real time, there is only now. :)

[ME BIGGD01]

Sirc, no one ever has the right nor the proof to debate you with what you feel. I can respect that. Maybe you're right. I don't think anyone ever came back and told the truth.

Of course with what you said, I wonder how it is possible to stop there? I mean you're not the only one who believes we are just part of something and nothing more but to me the mystery is the reason. I can tell you brother, this past 3 years have changed my life. I not only lost my wife but lost 2 best friends one of them recently. The way you think has been the way I have been thinking for (starting tomorrow) 3 years of what is the reason for all of this? Now I can accept people not believeing anything less or more but I myself can not accept that there is no reason. It just makes no sense being just a piece of dust in the wind (Leave the song alone please).

I have learned a few things these past few years. Things that effect me daily as well. First is the worst judgement one could have is themself. Oh I had that luxury when doctors told me I had a tumour on my brain and than MS. It wasn't a judgement of am I going to hell or heaven. Yes I do beleieve in such but not my point. The judgement was about what I did or what I am doing in this life. Am I a bad person or am I good person? Again that is not to go to heaven or hell but what you actually amount to as a person to not just your life but those in your life. It's a F'ed up state of mind but I do believe most people at least once in their life have to do this. I believe once this judgement has come, you will see life differently. Many people usually see their lives pass in front of them when death comes close but that's not the same thing but in many ways can spark that judgement. Some people lose someone very close to them and that gets them thinking as well.

I have learned that nothing is ever right but that should not mean stop fighting for waht you believe in. At the end, I believe we will all regret if we don't see the overall picture.

Now I can't prove to you there is a God because that takes faith. What I can prove to you there is more to us than being just a bunch of atoms. Just go outside and pick a rock up and throw it at your house. Those are atoms in the wind my friend. Now go pick up that same rock and throw it at someone. You will see there was a different result other than someone pressing charges on you for assault. I'm not sure if you understand what I am saying because I know I am the worst person to explain myself but if I can pursuade you into looking at life differently or at least with understanding the way I see it, something good may come out of it.

Another point I would like to make is when I hear someone tell me we are living in hell and then we go to heaven. If there is a hell, we would not get such gifts. Sure life sucks and is hard many times with death and pain and sorrow but for the true gifts in life at the end I am sure none of us would have changed a thing. I have had this discussion just a few months ago with my friend Benito who had cancer and was dying. It's a heart breaking story to me so I will spare you all the drama. He left this world with a wife with 2 kids and he was heart broken because he knew he wouldn't be there. This is the same thing that kills me inside when I think about what my wife was thinking which is what helped me help him get through it. His words were if he didn't have kids, he wouldn't give a shit. I told him yeah that would mean you did nothing in the world so meaninful or would have lived a life and missed out on one of the most precious gifts to me (God) or to you (atoms) has ever given you to witness. This is to me what judgement is. It reminds me of that movie with Nicolas Cage when he is a fallen Angel because he fell in love with Meg Ryan. The next day she ends up dying and one of the other Angels asks him, "would you have changed your mind had you know?" The Answer was perfect so much that I will remember it for life. "For one breathe of her hair!!!" It really is that simple and the proof we are not just atoms. Never forget you have a spirit.

Sorry for the usual gibberish. Some of you may need to smoke a few joints to see the hidden messages. Just think someone could read this and it might help them in one way or another in life as I get hit by a bus in the next 10 minutes. (You see, I did it again).

[Death Engineer]

I think you're special...

[ME BIGGD01]

Note, I am not trying to convince you or change your mind of anything, I just find it a fascinating topic.

In my own search for self I also went down the rabbit hole, but came out of one different from yours.

Do I believe in god? Yes, but not the god of the bible. My god is one of pure awareness that happened. After the awareness came the ability to identify, the ability to form beliefs, and the ability to separate its conscious. Nothing actually exists in the universe, there is no space, no time, except as concepts. god applied beliefs to the concepts and that created what we experience. When god created everything, he created it out of himself, since there is actually nothing else that exists. On the stage of the universe there is only one actor playing all the roles, not just of the characters, but also the band, the writers, the audience and the stage itself. Do we die? We can't die. If you died you would have no awareness. If an almost infinite amount of time passed and suddenly you were aware again, you would see that as an unbroken period of consciousness. Time in this concept is the projection of NOW. Time as we usually know it is a relationship of rate of change vs space and matter. Since none of these things actually exist there is no real time, there is only now.

Love it Jim. Seriously mean that. The whole thing is a mind F--- when you think about it. It's like a quest for the answers we will never get.

[Death Engineer]

When I die...

1. I want there to be a celebration of my life. Sure, there will be some sadness, but I would hope people would remember the good times.
2. I don't want an expensive funeral. I offered to let my wife cremate me herself the other night. She said no. I figure she didn't want to clean up one more mess in the kitchen. Plus our oven doesn't get that hot. Anyways....cremation or whatever is fine with me. By that time my spirit/being is long gone.
3. I'm looking forward to the afterlife. :)

[Die Hard]

3. I'm looking forward to the afterlife. :) I'm not sure you will get one?

Religion. An ever evolving belief based (at least in the last one thousand five hundred years) on coercion and power.

I'm not trying to poo poo your christian beliefs especially on an American site but the history of religion is predominantly brutal. If you did not believe in the en-vogue religion of the time (and Christianity is certainly no exception) you were persecuted, ostracised, beaten and even executed.


We are all made of star dust (even BIGGS) and religion is what you make of it? Survival of the fittest!


When I die I'm going to die (hard).

[JIMINATOR]

Not sure why you brought up religion. Yes, DE is religious, but he did not mention it. Religion does not own the concept of the afterlife. A lot of religions have defined what their concept of afterlife is, but you are free to believe anything you want and that is all fine. There are a lot of belief systems that are not religious but still believe in an afterlife.

[Die Hard]

A belief system? That sounds like a religion to me.

I'm not knocking religion or relgious people. I know many people with a belief system and to be fair those that do tend to be well rounded, nice folks.

[JIMINATOR]

Everybody has a belief system, including you. In fact some would say that the world we live in is a belief system.
You can have two different views on this:

The first is that shit happens to you. You see what is happening and form beliefs as to what the world is and how it works. This pretty much makes you a powerless victim in a continuing struggle against the whims of an uncaring universe.

The second is that you have a system of beliefs, ingrained, hidden or whatever. You create your world according to those beliefs. When bad things happen it is to point out that there are problems in your current belief system that need to be changed. You are more empowered from this viewpoint because you take responsibility for what exists in your life and how you can respond to it.

The afterlife.... well, how can an existing awareness be destroyed? Is existence a property that is somehow derived from a bunch of "inanimate" matter, or is matter somehow created out of something that exists?

You can play the "what existed before" game for some insight, ie: what existed before god? before his father? before any of them? before anything?

It is probably reasonable to say that at some point there was nothing at all. no time, no space, no concept of time or space. Just nothing, an impossibly empty nothingness.

From there you can speculate that matter somehow arose, was created out of nothingness, and the combination of different clumps of matter created life, and the cluster of a lot of living cells somehow created awareness and sentience.

Or an alternate view, from out of that vast nothingness somehow came an awareness. And the awareness was nothing but at the same time it was also infinite. And at some point the awareness wondered, if there was such a thing as life, what would it be like? And from there that awareness created an infinite number of universes - out of itself. And each universe contains an endless variety of life. All life contains a portion of that awareness.

This is our universe, our playground. No doubt we all have times of suffering, of trials and of tribulations. But all the same I bet you have had a lot of moments where you have said, damn, it is good to be alive. All this variety of experience, that is what it is all about.

[Sirc]

Wow. Die Hard has posted more actual text in this thread than he has posted on GameMecca in the last 5 years combined.

[Die Hard]

Hmm Jim you sort of lost me in the nothingness/awareness part. Needless to say my views are quite simple. Suns, moons, planets, life, they all come and go over time.

When we die, we die.

Acutally Sirc its 4 years 3 months and 12 days :P

[Dan2]

When I die, my organs will be donated to someone in need.

[Sirc]

I really didn't expect this thread to go this far. I expected no responses except possibly from Nitro (who hasn't even posted yet).

So much to respond to, but first let me say - Dan2 that was an excellent post. I'm an organ donor too. I wonder why anyone wouldn't be.

Jim, about the no brain post. That was a lot to read and I'm not really interested in getting into brain abnormalities. The brain is an amazing and very adaptable organ. Apparently you can survive and function with very little of it. That would be a good topic for another thread.

You asked why Die Hard brought up religion, but you were the first person to bring up god. That's where you lose me.


god applied beliefs to the concepts and that created what we experience. When god created everything, he created it out of himself, since there is actually nothing else that exists.

You speak of god as a sentient entity, as an actor, that was responsible for our creation and our own self awareness. I certainly can't say what happened, or how it all began, and you and I may not even have the mental capacity to do so. I do believe that we are a result of billions of years evolution and chance occurrences. Our perception of the world around us happened extremely gradually, and our beliefs are our own construction.


Do we die? We can't die. If you died you would have no awareness. If an almost infinite amount of time passed and suddenly you were aware again, you would see that as an unbroken period of consciousness. Time in this concept is the projection of NOW. Time as we usually know it is a relationship of rate of change vs space and matter. Since none of these things actually exist there is no real time, there is only now.

Metabolically we can die. And decompose. And become random matter again. And the awareness would be gone. I don't get how your consciousness would survive that unless there was a god keeping our memories intact. Time/space/matter continues despite what your personal physical state is in. Your atoms may become part of a lamp post.

You are clearly a religious person in the fact that you believe you have a soul that endures beyond your own physical form. Otherwise, how could you possibly believe in an unbroken period of consciousness and then become aware as yourself again? That information has to be stored somewhere by something. God?

[Sirc]

Bigg -

I've lost people too. We all get dealt our hands. Each of us. The trick is to play that hand as well as you can while you are in the game. Because the game will end at some point. Does that mean it's all meaningless? No!

The problem is when people aren't willing to take an active role in the game while it lasts. Too many people sit on their thumbs and expect someone else to guide them and tell them how to live. You seem to be the type of person that has taken command of your own life. One of the problems with doing this is inevitably you become entangled in other people's lives.

It's a rough game. And there will be good times and bad times. And you, or those you care about can be dealt a really shitty hand. That's life. I in no way mean to be callous or unsympathetic. I don't even really know you. I have never met you in person, but there were tears in my eyes while you unfolded to us what was happening to you wife. Empathy is a human trait. Possibly even a trait some "animals" share. Higher primates, elephants, many animals have been observed to mourn.

You make this difficult for me to share my beliefs because you are making things personal, and I don't want to come across as dismissing or disrespecting your hardships.

We are not just atoms. In our lives nothing is pointless. Our lives are a journey from point A to point B. How you get from one to the other makes your life meaningful. It's up to each of us to do that.

[Sirc]

When I die...

1. I want there to be a celebration of my life. Sure, there will be some sadness, but I would hope people would remember the good times.
2. I don't want an expensive funeral. I offered to let my wife cremate me herself the other night. She said no. I figure she didn't want to clean up one more mess in the kitchen. Plus our oven doesn't get that hot. Anyways....cremation or whatever is fine with me. By that time my spirit/being is long gone.
3. I'm looking forward to the afterlife. :)

All of this is absolutely acceptable to me (not that you care). In fact, I'd be happy to respect your wishes and stuff you into the oven. You'd be surprised how hot self-cleaning ovens can get. :)

My wish is that you do not push how you get into the afterlife on my own belief system. Not that you have ever done that, but there are others that would inject their own personal belief system agenda into politics. When the agenda crosses from simple social common sense into a specific religious belief system, then that makes us no better than countries that operate under sharia law.

And I think you're special too. :D

[Sirc]

A belief system? That sounds like a religion to me.

I'm not knocking religion or relgious people. I know many people with a belief system and to be fair those that do tend to be well rounded, nice folks.

Die Hard, you must have a belief system. It may not be religious, but you have some sort of belief system. If not, than that makes you a serious sociopath.

Do you not have morals? Do you not have a sense of fairness and community and social values? None of these things are owned by any religion. Religion is not required to have these qualities. It's common sense.

[JIMINATOR]

Sirc, to be clear, I am not a religious person. I am a spiritual person. There is a difference. Religion belongs to institutions that go and dictate a series of beliefs, and they typically look to grow and expand.

For myself, I could care less what anyone believes. I don't believe in a hell, so when our bodies die, we will all go the same place, regardless of beliefs. If what you believe in works for you, then that is good enough. If you want to have some interesting conversations, then that works fine also.

For us being the product of evolution, that is an interesting point. Look up the tv series ancient aliens. One of the shows talked about how there was a radical departure of humans from the rest of the animal kingdom some 50000 years ago. It is speculated that at that point our brains increased in cognitive thinking to the point where we could talk. Another point I realized myself is that we also have a subconscious, which is not reflected in any other types of animals. They have much simpler motivations (when understood, ie: dog/horse whisperer...). How did this all develop in 50000 years? Billions, yes. 50000 however is virtually nothing in the context of evolution.

As for memories.... do they really matter?
We have a body. The cells are in a continual state of death and rebirth every day, until one day it will totally die. We are not the body.
We have memories. We like to believe our memories define who we are, but really they only define who we were. We are not our memories.

The only true thing we can really say is that "I exist". We are a special something that experiences our body and our memories.
Maybe it was caused by the random coming together of a lot of brain cells. Why however does our sense of self extend unbroken from the time we are children to now? Our brain forms and destroys billions of neural connections during those times.

Questions, questions.... :)

[SASQUATCH]

I enjoyed some of what Biggs, Sirc and many others have posted. I feel it significance that can easily be interpreted in any type of formula and in the end the result is what each and everyone feel or think what it might all mean. Once you have that, it can all connect together. However, to answer some of the message, It’s unlikely that we will ever find the answers, but like I said as long as what I read what Sirc said so beautifully and Biggs and a few others, I could gather even more information and thoughts in my own interpretation of what it all might mean.

Sometimes words can open a tunnel of many different ways of absorbing information that can actually open more doors not only to find new ideas but also more convoluting answers but yet always open to hear that can provide these wonderful and intricate answers, belief, and meanings.

Thank you all for posting.

SAS

[ME BIGGD01]

I think regardless no matter what anyones beliefs are, they should be opened to change. I get confused here a bit if we are discussing our bodies or our spirit. Are some of you in belief that we are just our body or do we all agree we are more than that? I myself think even when my eyes are closed I am something. This is not a does a tree make a sound if no one hears it situation but simply does anything in this world work while you are not there even if you had something to do with it?

No matter what, no one will ever know until they have passed. It's the true Matrix. I often wonder if we waste too much time in life thinking about it rather than just living but at the same time wonder if you don't think about it, you may lose something. It's a mental F!!!!

[Die Hard]

To answer biggs question: I believe I am just a body, period.

And to Sirc. Yes of course I have morals, I beiieve in right and wrong and trying to do the best for society. But I do not think of that as a belief system.

I am not religious or spiritual. I don't believe in anything apart from life and death. However, I know and respect many religious and spiritual people.

I could go onto but if's. No point because I have never met anyone who believes in one thing and then to be persuaded to believe in another unless they are in a vulnerable position. I do know people who have 'found the light' during a stage in their life of major upset!
*

[Sirc]

I think regardless no matter what anyones beliefs are, they should be opened to change.

I agree.


I get confused here a bit if we are discussing our bodies or our spirit. Are some of you in belief that we are just our body or do we all agree we are more than that?

I think we are discussing what we believe. We have a mix of theists, spiritualists, agnostics, and atheists. And it's pretty friggin amazing that we can all get together and express our beliefs without pushing them. It's a thoroughly enjoyable free exchange of ideas without judgement.

[Sirc]

And to Sirc. Yes of course I have morals, I beiieve in right and wrong and trying to do the best for society. But I do not think of that as a belief system

Maybe we are getting caught up in semantics. What if I called it a template by which you live your life?

[ME BIGGD01]

Is this heaven or hell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5TajZYW6Y

[Sirc]

Jim -

I don't have the answers to some of the questions you are asking. I don't know that much about brain function, nor do I know what happened 50,000 years ago. Science is a learning process. There are gaps and there are unknowns. Science is constantly unraveling and revising itself - and that's the beauty of it. Actually the same can be said for religion. Perhaps at some point the two will meet.

Consciously I lean towards being an atheist. I just can't wrap my mind around the religious stories and believe them to be true. I'm feel more comfortable watching science unravel mysteries. However, I am aware of a very subtle shadow of doubt and uncertainty that hides in my mind. I admit I could be wrong because I simply do not know the truth.

I will say that I really don't have a problem with having brains cells replaced. Or having our brains re-wire as we mature and learn. Unless something catastrophic happens, why wouldn't new brain cells be able to take on the role of of their predecessors? A single brain cell is trivial compared to the vast amount of cells that make up your consciousness and your brain as a whole. A cell dies, and a new cell forms and gets programmed to take it's place. Or the dead cell doesn't get replaced and another cell gets programmed to perform a new function.

I don't believe in having a spirit, so for me it's simply a mechanical process. Nothing is lost, it just gets re-routed.

[Sirc]

Is this heaven or hell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5TajZYW6Y

Clearly, you are going to hell for posting that. :P

[Sirc]

So Jim,

You are a spiritual person. From what I understand here you believe that your spirit is not bound to your physical body (although I may have misunderstood).

My turn to ask questions.

How do you believe your spirit is connected to you? Is it inside you? Is it something like an aura around you? Is it actually you, and your physical body is simply something that channels it? When your body dies, does your spirit lose connection with the physical world? Or can it come back? Where does it go?

What is a spirit?

[JIMINATOR]

No problem. Always feel free to ask anything. I pretty much don't take offense. Really the questions of life and death are extremely important.
So many people are living their lives in a state of fear and paralysis and avoidance because they are so afraid of death.
We see that in many parts of the world, where people have to "get everything they can" and promote life "at all costs'' and protect life "at all costs" even where it is to the detriment of everyone involved.

Anyway, how is my spirit connected to me? I think that is partially mistaken assumption, that we are the body, and the spirit/soul is something that "humans" have (vs animals for example). I am the spirit, the experiencer. Right now I am experiencing through this body. When the body dies I will be experiencing something else. Not sure what, will be interesting to find out.

I think the major part of our experiencing is done through "identity'. We can identify with anything, and we probably do this on many levels every day. Our main identification is with the body. When the body dies it breaks our identification, then we identify with something else.

We can easily see identification in action. Look at anyone that takes their job too seriously, or becomes super passionate about a group or subject or anything.

Anyway, back to the body, I see the brain as some sort of physical translation mechanism. It takes the sensory input from the physical world, filters it, processes it (ego), and passes it back to ourselves.

So anyway, right now we experience as a body. We have dreams, in which we can see anything, including "dead" people. We for the most part pretty much forget them unless we make some conscious effort to remember.

It may be that "death" is the waking up from the dream of having a body.

Can we come back? Sure, why not. Maybe that would mean identifying with a fetus, or something else. No doubt a non-physical process. We could probably visit others in their own dreams.

It is just in this physical world we are experiencing extreme forms of limitation. In dreams for example, there are no such limitations. You can learn to work with lucid dreams for example to experience more of what is possible there. I think that is our natural state, but without all the "forgetting" that we are subject to here.

[Sirc]

Thank you Jim. That was actually pretty thought-provoking.

Especially the lucid dreaming part. I've always been able to do that, although it was much more common when I was younger. I still have lucid dreams. I've never tied this to spirituality. Something to think about.

Although, I have to admit, as a young man my lucid dreaming tended to be sexually oriented. I know, TMI, but it was a lot of fun. ;)

[Die Hard]

I'm finding this thread very interesting not least of all because Jimbo is articulate beyond my wildest dreams. Sorry to mention dreams especially after Sircs interlude!

It's all very nice to have these claims of spiritulism but none of them are proven. It's simply a state of mind. After all we are all crazy in our own way.

There is no afterlife. There is no higher being. There is only a sense of what we should be now and what we have been told will happen later.

[JIMINATOR]

the horrors, of what it must feel like to live your entire life, then poof! all gone! all for nothing! never again.
But hey, at least your children (if you have any) survived. But they are subject to the same fate.
As is the earth. The sun will cool and expand and swallow up the earth.
Maybe the entire universe will contract and fall backwards into a singularity.
Everything that ever existed will cease to be.
Nothing in the universe will escape that fate since everything of space/time will collapse into that same hole.
Ultimately anyway you look it, seems pretty pointless.

But hey, you can choose to believe in something.
Why, you say?
You got all the religious mumbo-jumbo as a child and it always seemed like bullshit to you.
Something about it just did not jibe with what you knew inside to be the truth.
Throughout your life you have probably had lots of synchronicity experiences, ignored or dismissed.
There is something there perhaps deep inside you. Can you find it?

[Die Hard]

My parents were not religious at all. Yes religion reared its head at weddings and funerals but not much else. So, no there was no religious undertones or mumbo jumbo when i was growing up.

At the age of 16 I started to study astronomy and since then religion and/or spiritulism has seemed like mumbo jumbo.

So yes, sad as it may seem to you. I will lead my life and then expire. Some will remember me but will feel no real connection unless their mind tells them to do so.

Come on. There are many, many reasons why I do not believe in religion or the spirits but there is not enough room or tolerance on this forum to tell.

Whatever your beliefs, I say good for it. Live life to the full. I think we can all agree on that.

[Sirc]

the horrors, of what it must feel like to live your entire life, then poof! all gone! all for nothing! never again.
But hey, at least your children (if you have any) survived. But they are subject to the same fate.
As is the earth. The sun will cool and expand and swallow up the earth.
Maybe the entire universe will contract and fall backwards into a singularity.
Everything that ever existed will cease to be.
Nothing in the universe will escape that fate since everything of space/time will collapse into that same hole.
Ultimately anyway you look it, seems pretty pointless.

But hey, you can choose to believe in something.
Why, you say?
You got all the religious mumbo-jumbo as a child and it always seemed like bullshit to you.
Something about it just did not jibe with what you knew inside to be the truth.
Throughout your life you have probably had lots of synchronicity experiences, ignored or dismissed.
There is something there perhaps deep inside you. Can you find it?

Wow. Have you become a spiritualistic evangelist or are you just trolling DH? Either way it's not what I had intended for this thread.

Die Hard, you may want to throw in a few "I believe this.." before you tell us how things are. It would lighten the discussion a bit. There may not be room here for you to fully explain what you believe, but so far there has been a great deal of tolerance. :)

None of us are going to convince anyone else to change their opinions on the matter. The point was simply to share your opinions.

Jim, stop trolling. Horrors? Really? :rolleyes:

BTW way Jim, the universe is not only expanding, it's accelerating it's expansion from everything I've read. Or maybe you don't believe that - that would be okay with me.

[JIMINATOR]

My apologies to DH and anyone that might have been offended. Not my intention. I'll shut up now. :)

[ME BIGGD01]

I think the thread is fine and no one really offended anyone. Not even me :-). I think people feel they have to believe something or they were taught to believe something, or maybe some just believe in something. I think life really makes you beleive something regardless and at the end of the day, we can only hope we learned something to help that belief.

I was never one to push anything on anyone when it comes to this stuff. I have always respected religous people and their values. That's right, every couple of months I have a ring at the door with the same black lady and usually a stranger who have a Jehova's witness booklet. For the almost 2 years at my new house she comes and smiles and I chat with her about things and I actually enjoy it. After thinking about it, I realized that no matter what religon it is, I accept those that talk about love and true peace. I was born Catholic and I just don't follow it because it's not always about love with them as much as it about rules. I can't accept that. I am sure regardless of what you believe if there is a heaven or hell, you are not wrong either way as long as you don't go against your beliefs. As an example, you wouldn't kill people because you feel it doesn't matter if it's wrong because who would it be wrong to if the person is dead. Same goes you shouldn't be nice and kind because you believe that is what gets you in heaven. I kind of get what Jim is saying and I agree with a lot of it but I also have other things inmy life that happened to make me believe in other things which is a perfect example we are all right as long as you live by your beliefs and respect that your life and everyone elses is a gift. Now with that, I truthfully feel that there are evil people out there and they need to be eliminated which would seem like I am a hypocrite to some who believe that. I don't.

As you see I really have nothing to do tonight with myslef as this is what life as become at the age 40. I believe I need to go to bed because I am babing and realize it as well.

[Die Hard]

My apologies to DH and anyone that might have been offended. Not my intention. I'll shut up now. :)Ha ha, I know your big fat ugly mug well enough by now not to be offended. Your posts are always entertaining. More please :)